Fire by friction- help

[Aaron Rushton]

hi all,
well i had a go at fire by friction today. i got a sycmore base, hazel drill and bow, with paracord strung between it and 2 limpet shells to hold it down. I tried time after time and got loads of smoke but no ember to light the cotton wool i had. i kept going till the point where i was too tired to go any longer. the keyhole and end of drill is blackende and charred. i followed everything in the guide on the NB youtube channel. is there any tips you could give me? i'm hoping (if i can do it myself that is) too make a load of these fire kits and teach it at my scout group.
ATB
Aaron.

[JonnyP]

How thick was your hearth..? If its more than 1/2 inch (12.5 mm) your drilling too heigh.. Your ember will cool as it falls, so the lower your drill to the hearth, the better..
Start off slow and slowly build up, conserving energy.. Once you have good smoke give it large..
Remember to breathe. This is important. Many people hold their breathe and will soon give in.. Keep breathing, getting the oxygen into you..
Also, if you need a break, then stop, but keep the drill in the hearth to keep the heat in. If you get going again soon, then you will soon get the smoke again.
Try different sized drills.. If your drill is too big, you will need more effort. If its too small, you will soon drill through the hearth. Both of these can be good or bad, depending on what materials you are using, but hazel on sycamore, you should be ok with a 12 to 16 mm drill.
If you can get hold of it, I recommend using Wisteria as a drill, and Larch as a hearth, as that does it for me.. Many folk will have different opinions though, its a case of finding what works for you..
Good luck.. :0)
If your coming to the RV, come and find me, and I will help you. I will be doing the pole lathe stuff..

[Aaron Rushton]

thank you very much! really useful info, i will have another go today. what is the RV?

[JonnyP]

Cornwall RV.. http://www.footstepsofdiscovery.co.uk/cornwall.html

[Kiltie]

Also try willow, easily sought, 'drill' the thickness of your thumb, hearth half that thickness-works for me, and like Jonny says most important to breath-put more emphasis on your 'out-breath' as this will cause your diaphragm and ribcage to act more naturally
HTH

[MikeWilkinson]

What colour and consistency was the powder after you got smoke, should be dark brown to black and very fine - think ground coffee, If it was light brown not enough pressure, if it is black and looks like little rolls then you are either bowing to fast or putting on too much pressure.

Hearth thickness isn't really that important other than don't go too thin or you will burn through the board before you get an ember. Build up a good amount of powder in the notch by bowing enough to get a little smoke but not lots, once the notch is full build up speed till it smokes heavily, then bow twelve times more.
Do everything from this point on at a slow, calm pace - remove the drill from the hearth, check to see if the powder smokes by itself, if it does, fan it with your hand do not blow on it just yet. Tap the ember clear of the board and remove the board, continue fanning the ember, when it cherries up transfer to you tinder bundle and begin blowing.

I use Sycamore and Hazel most of time as well. The most important thing to learn here is the quality of the powder you produce, as you experiment with different woods you will learn that they all require varying speeds and pressure to achieve the coffee like powder you need.

For loads of info about this try looking here.

http://www.wildwoodsurvival.com/survival/fire/bowdrill/pmoc/basicbowdrill.html

I pretty much solved all my problems reading through this and the associated articles.

[great white ape]

Hey there,

My friend is rather food at all this and we recently used the bow drill to make our fire. Here is a link on youtube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Fr99muF5a4

[BelfastBushcraft]

HI,

It is one of those things that can be difficult to get on your own and can be so much eaiser with a good teacher beside you. I have used Hazel drill on Lime hearth and sycamore-willow,syc-syc willow willow to great effect.
Make sure you dont push down to much, you dont have to go as hard as you think! Make sure your body is relaxed as as already suggested breath just like you would doing any other vigorous exercise.

Dont worry about getting an ember concentrate on good form because every time you move that bow your body will get a little better.

Keep going mate, you can do it.

Andy

[Sleepy]

Been having another go at this, am I wrong using ash hearth and block and Hazel drill?

Getting loads of smoke very quickly and black ish (very slightly brown) powder that's sort of stringy (like very fine tobacco, but no longer than 2.5mm).

Drill and bow are about thumb thick (drill's more finger thick), block's fist sized and hearth's about half inch thick

[luresalive]

Use any combination of willow and Lime, it seems to be all that works for me.

[Sleepy]

I'll have to try that mate, thanks.

[Mang]

I've Willow, Hazel/ Ivy and Sycamore. Had a go the other day (with Willow) after not practicing for far too long and got a big coal first time with Willow. Purists will probably not like this but I use a *tiny* pinch of fine bone dry grit in the hearth to rough it up a little and after each go I collect any remaining coal dust and add it to the grit bag.

[MikeWilkinson]

Used Willow on horse chestnut yesterday, took a couple of goes to work out the right pressure on the chestnut but then no problems after that. I'd give that combo a 3/5 for ease of getting an ember. Hazel on Lime has been the best so far, followed closely by Willow on Lime and Willow on Willow.

[Adam Savage]

Just had a quick go at fire by friction, and big tip, warm up your back muscles a little before you go hammer and tongs at it. My back is killing me LOL

[Ben Casey]

Just had a quick go at fire by friction, and big tip, warm up your back muscles a little before you go hammer and tongs at it. My back is killing me LOL

You have to start slow mate then when the smoke circles around the base then speed up I learnt that in Cornwall but I still collapsed just before it got going LOL

[Adam Savage]

I just pulled my back, being at such a funny angle haha

[Ben Casey]

I just pulled my back, being at such a funny angle haha

it is a killer mate I just collapsed at the RV and the guy was saying your nearly there and well I cant write what I was thinking :D But if you do it slow and as the smoke starts to swirl at the bottom then speed up it should work and if the ash I think is turning grey or black then your nearly there :)

[Adam Savage]

I was only bedding in the spindle and hearth, then ping, something in my lower back just gave. Could hardly walk, can hardly sit and type lol. Think I pinched a nerve or something.

[Ben Casey]

I was only bedding in the spindle and hearth, then ping, something in my lower back just gave. Could hardly walk, can hardly sit and type lol. Think I pinched a nerve or something.

I have some happy juice here but your a bit far to just nip over with it have you got a wheat sack if so put that on your back :)

[Adam Savage]

Yep dont he sack bit. And knocked back a couple pain killers lol. Anyhoo, back to the thread. I'm hoping to crack the bow drill this weekend, if the backs better.

[Ben Casey]

Try like I said mate but Im sure there will be a few guys who can do it and will show you a trick or two.

[Adam Savage]

Should be ok, like I said I was bedding in the spindle, and thinks were going ok.

[MikeWilkinson]

Hmmmm. If your getting really knackered trying to get an ember, it might be that you are trying to hard.
There are two stages to producing the ember after you have made your notch.
The first stage is to make the powder you need to create your ember, this should be achieved with firm pressure on the spindle and drill slowly, there should be minimum smoke and a fuzzy coffee/black powder should fill your notch. If it is crusty and black then you are pushing to hard and bowing to fast. If it is fine and light brown then there is not enough pressure and you are not bowing quick enough.

The second stage is the heat stage, once the notch is full of powder you need to lighten the pressure on the spindle and bow vigourously, there should be little powder produced in this stage, but lots of smoke. Keep breathing, but don't huff and puff onto your set - you will just extinguish your ember.
You should be breathing hard, but shouldn't be totally knackered.

Hope this helps. Mike

[paul standley]

Thanks Mike, I too had been struggling with my bow drill and my stamina....!

Explaining it in terms of creating the powder in the bowl as a first stage and then turning the powder into a smouldering ember as a second stage is a great way to approach it in my mind so I'll be trying this at the weekend.

Paul.

[MikeWilkinson]

I put a link to an article on page 1 of this thread, if you have a look on there and scroll down to the section 'getting a coal' there are some photos and great advice on what you should be looking for.

I pretty much learnt how to the bow drill from that document.

[Bernie]

This has got to be THE best video I've ever seen on technique. It doesn't help much with wood selection, but her technique and clear instruction is something I never tire of watching.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlxujVPiN6U

[luresalive]

That is actually a very good video, good post

[Ben Casey]

Good vid I will have to try it again :)

[Adam Savage]

Hmmmm. If your getting really knackered trying to get an ember, it might be that you are trying to hard.
There are two stages to producing the ember after you have made your notch.
The first stage is to make the powder you need to create your ember, this should be achieved with firm pressure on the spindle and drill slowly, there should be minimum smoke and a fuzzy coffee/black powder should fill your notch. If it is crusty and black then you are pushing to hard and bowing to fast. If it is fine and light brown then there is not enough pressure and you are not bowing quick enough.

The second stage is the heat stage, once the notch is full of powder you need to lighten the pressure on the spindle and bow vigourously, there should be little powder produced in this stage, but lots of smoke. Keep breathing, but don't huff and puff onto your set - you will just extinguish your ember.
You should be breathing hard, but shouldn't be totally knackered.

Hope this helps. Mike

I just asserted a little too much downward pressure to the spindle at one point, causing the bow to pretty much stop dead, resulting in "el twisteedo, backtickular muscularitis" ;)

Had success with fire by friction at the weekend, as well as getting involved with a group bow drill exercise, for with I will be posting photos at some point.

Thanks for the advice though friend.

[MikeWilkinson]

Look forward to seeing the photos, hope your back is feeling much better.

[Adam Savage]

Look forward to seeing the photos, hope your back is feeling much better.

I'll try and get them sorted after I have rested from the week lol. Back was ok after a couple days. Like I said it was just twisting at the wrong angle, so nothing major.

[Adam Savage]

Here's a slide show of the group bow drill over the weekend.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Zj4tdDB5So

[Adam Savage]

Sorry for the poor quality of the photos, so much for "youtube HQ" lol