Recommend a mid layer

[comanighttrain]

Anyone recommend a fleece?

I'm trying to get two for layering but I want them to pack well... Any suggestions?

[Kiltie]

What about a 'Norgie' http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/BRITISH-ARMY-GREEN-NORWEGIAN-SHIRT-NORGI-SIZE-LARGE-/310306166197?pt=UK_Collectables_Militaria_LE&hash=item483fb055b5

and a thin waterproof breathable shell for over it
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Mens-Berghaus-Gore-Tex-Paclite-Shell-Jacket-SizeL-/280657330369?pt=UK_Men_s_Coats_Jackets&hash=item41587b00c1

[Realbark]

I use Regatta fleeces - good enough for my needs and very cheap - around 10.00 to 12.00 quid.

[Martin]

Get yourself down to TKMaxx. They usually have a selection of microfleeces at really cheap prices (from under a tenner). Can't see the point in spending good money on a mid layer when all you want it to do is to move moisture from your base layer to the outside.

Martin

[comanighttrain]

Top idea martin! I actually nearly got a pair of sailing...uhh...waders? in there for a £10...now that would be serious wet weather gear.

Realbark - I always find that when i bend over wearing those they go up my back (even the large sizes)....

[comanighttrain]

What about a 'Norgie' http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/BRITISH-ARMY-GREEN-NORWEGIAN-SHIRT-NORGI-SIZE-LARGE-/310306166197?pt=UK_Collectables_Militaria_LE&hash=item483fb055b5

and a thin waterproof breathable shell for over it
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Mens-Berghaus-Gore-Tex-Paclite-Shell-Jacket-SizeL-/280657330369?pt=UK_Men_s_Coats_Jackets&hash=item41587b00c1

Norgie had caught my eye... seen them for cheap too (probably get grade 1...im not too bothered about looks just function)

[Martin]

If I were you, I'd steer clear of the Norgie. They will soak up sweat like a towel and get just as heavy.

Martin

[comanighttrain]

thats why I was thinking fleece...norgie looks like a big cloth

[Martin]

thats why I was thinking fleece...norgie looks like a big cloth

Fleece is the way to go mate. At a push, go with a woolen jumper, but I'd stick with microfleece for a mid-layer.

Martin

[comanighttrain]

I think microfleece is the winner, bear in mind I have to wear it up hills usually! to TK max!

[Martin]

I got a Lowe Alpine one from them last autumn. In the winter, you can see the sweat misting on the outside of it before it evaporates away. Lovely bit of kit. :)

Martin

[Woodwose]

I’m a big fan of norgees, I really am. I’m not that keen on man made fibres next to the skin and norgees being cotton work for me. I see them more as a base layer than a mid layer. I wear one under a buffalo pertex windshirt for most of the year.
Anyhoo I’d recommend a Buffalo windshirt, cost about £50.00 although fleece it ain’t.

http://www.buffalosystems.co.uk/Mens_Windshirt.htm

[bigzee]

My A**e sits firmly in the norgie camp here. I've had a few over the years, and although by no means fashionable, they are cheap,comfortable,flexible,warm and mostly adjustable - owing to a good length lightweight zip which vents sufficiently, and does form that hard unpleasant full lenght ridge like a fleece zip.

I still have my first one in black which is (like my "commando" socks) older than my 16 year old son and still in service - much to his disbelief!

[Martin]

The problem with Norgees/Norgies etc etc, is exactly that they are made of cotton.

Now, when you are in camp, doing minimum exertion, they are great; they keep you warm and cosy and feel nice next to the skin. Sadly, as soon as you start exerting yourself, especially in a cold damp climate like Scotland, which is exactly where Comanightrain does his mountain climbing, they become wet with sweat. I should also add that in Scandinavia, where this item of clothing was designed for I believe, the humidity is much lower and the cold much colder.

Once they become wet they are heavy and once you stop to rest they become cold which is where hypothermia becomes a problem. Seriously, if cotton were a viable material for this sort of activity people would still be wearing it but there are much better, safer alternatives.

Having said all that, I do own a Norgie and I may even be wearing it at the RV as it is nice and warm around camp but when I take to the mountains at the end of May I will definitely be wearing a 'technical' base and mid layer.

Martin

[Ben Casey]

The problem with Norgees/Norgies etc etc, is exactly that they are made of cotton.

Now, when you are in camp, doing minimum exertion, they are great; they keep you warm and cosy and feel nice next to the skin. Sadly, as soon as you start exerting yourself, especially in a cold damp climate like Scotland, which is exactly where Comanightrain does his mountain climbing, they become wet with sweat. I should also add that in Scandinavia, where this item of clothing was designed for I believe, the humidity is much lower and the cold much colder.

Once they become wet they are heavy and once you stop to rest they become cold which is where hypothermia becomes a problem. Seriously, if cotton were a viable material for this sort of activity people would still be wearing it but there are much better, safer alternatives.

Having said all that, I do own a Norgie and I may even be wearing it at the RV as it is nice and warm around camp but when I take to the mountains at the end of May I will definitely be wearing a 'technical' base and mid layer.

Martin

We where told in the Army when you stoped you put layers on if you where mobile or doing heavy work you removed layers :) just a thought on the sweating and cold side of life :)

[comanighttrain]

Believe it or not, the drovers (cattle drivers) used to traverse this terrain with only a kilt, which at night would become a blanket... now I wonder how they stopped it getting wet...or if it maybe dried quickly...

As for the norgies... I'm not sure... I might see if i can pick up a surplus norgie and give it a trial run, but it most certainly will get wet... in the highlands you get wet even on seemingly dry days...

I picked up some cheapo microfleeces and an actual fleece, funnily enough the actual fleece does not pack well... however it is a quality fleece and it was dirt cheap....

[bigzee]

The problem with Norgees/Norgies etc etc, is exactly that they are made of cotton.

Now, when you are in camp, doing minimum exertion, they are great; they keep you warm and cosy and feel nice next to the skin. Sadly, as soon as you start exerting yourself, especially in a cold damp climate like Scotland, which is exactly where Comanightrain does his mountain climbing, they become wet with sweat. I should also add that in Scandinavia, where this item of clothing was designed for I believe, the humidity is much lower and the cold much colder.

Once they become wet they are heavy and once you stop to rest they become cold which is where hypothermia becomes a problem. Seriously, if cotton were a viable material for this sort of activity people would still be wearing it but there are much better, safer alternatives.

Having said all that, I do own a Norgie and I may even be wearing it at the RV as it is nice and warm around camp but when I take to the mountains at the end of May I will definitely be wearing a 'technical' base and mid layer.

Martin
How does this "wicking moisture away from the skin" thing work Martin?

Exertion causes heat, and the body reacts by sweating to regulate skin temperature. What we don't want is icy winds on sweaty skin, as that leads down the hypothermia lane. We were talking about mid-layers here, but if we had a wicking base layer, wouldn't that draw perspiration/condensation from the skin and transfer it to the exterior of the fabric. As long as we had a "breathable" exterior layer and not an old-style cagoule on, wouldn't that moisture/ humidity be then transferred to air ?

Or have I got this science wrapped round my neck?

[Kiltie]

Believe it or not, the drovers (cattle drivers) used to traverse this terrain with only a kilt, which at night would become a blanket... now I wonder how they stopped it getting wet...or if it maybe dried quickly...


The Féileadh Mòr (kilt) woven from pure wool and naturally heavy with lanolin is almost completely waterproof, being 9 yards long (the full 9 yards) would wrap an adult easily, it is said that drovers and reevers would dip their plaid in the freezing waters of a loch or river and then wrap themselves up for the night, much the same as modern Scouts are shown the effect of washing the feet in very cold water before going to bed-the result is fiery hot feet all night and a deep slumber even in winter.

[Martin]

How does this "wicking moisture away from the skin" thing work Martin?

Exertion causes heat, and the body reacts by sweating to regulate skin temperature. What we don't want is icy winds on sweaty skin, as that leads down the hypothermia lane. We were talking about mid-layers here, but if we had a wicking base layer, wouldn't that draw perspiration/condensation from the skin and transfer it to the exterior of the fabric. As long as we had a "breathable" exterior layer and not an old-style cagoule on, wouldn't that moisture/ humidity be then transferred to air ?

Or have I got this science wrapped round my neck?

The honest answer is that I don't know precisely the science of how this works but my theory is that, as the sweat evaporates this leads to a sort of capiliary action which draws the moisture from inside to outside. As the fabric isn't absorbant it doesn't soak up the moisture but allows it to pass along the fibres from inside to out. A perfect demonstration of this occurred on Friday lunchtime as I was putting my teepee up and sorting out my camp. The sun was beating down and I was dripping with sweat. I took off my top shirt and allowed the air to evaporate the sweat away from my Coolmax base layer. I was cool and sweat free within 5 minutes. I have experienced the same thing with microfleece when out walking. I think the bottom line is that man made fibres, as well as some natural ones like wool, don't absorb water but they allow it to wick along the fibres.

Anyway, that's my theory which seems to work for me. Of course it may not work for everyone. :)

Martin

[Adam Savage]

We where told in the Army when you stoped you put layers on if you where mobile or doing heavy work you removed layers :) just a thought on the sweating and cold side of life :)

I'm with you there, we always wore norgies. The woolly pulley was never that warm, but could be put between norgie and combat smock. Only really used them in winter, or at night around the camp. Never noticed any extra weight or moisture build up I must say, but if the temp was that high, we would go for shirt as a base (never bothered too much with the Ts unless tabbing or running the course), woolly pulley as mid, and smock as top layer.

[Ben Casey]

I'm with you there, we always wore norgies. The woolly pulley was never that warm, but could be put between norgie and combat smock. Only really used them in winter, or at night around the camp. Never noticed any extra weight or moisture build up I must say, but if the temp was that high, we would go for shirt as a base (never bothered too much with the Ts unless tabbing or running the course), woolly pulley as mid, and smock as top layer.

We never got Ts whats them we just had underwear like a green tea bag horrible stuff the Norgies we either nicked swapped or bought LOL

[Adam Savage]

Well yeah, we bought the norgies, but everyone had one...or several...to sell of course... lol, The Ts are just T-shirts, like a thermal kind of material, bit itchy when issued but soon wear in.

[Ben Casey]

Well yeah, we bought the norgies, but everyone had one...or several...to sell of course... lol, The Ts are just T-shirts, like a thermal kind of material, bit itchy when issued but soon wear in.

That must be the nylon things I keep coming across then.

[Adam Savage]

Probably, I'll have to check mine to see what it's made of, that's if the label is still legible haha

[Ben Casey]

Probably, I'll have to check mine to see what it's made of, that's if the label is still legible haha

I really think they are a nylon base and the threads itch like mad :D

[Adam Savage]

I really think they are a nylon base and the threads itch like mad :D

I bet you're right, like I said though, they soon wear in and stop itching.

[bigzee]

The honest answer is that I don't know precisely the science of how this works but my theory is that, as the sweat evaporates this leads to a sort of capiliary action which draws the moisture from inside to outside. As the fabric isn't absorbant it doesn't soak up the moisture but allows it to pass along the fibres from inside to out. A perfect demonstration of this occurred on Friday lunchtime as I was putting my teepee up and sorting out my camp. The sun was beating down and I was dripping with sweat. I took off my top shirt and allowed the air to evaporate the sweat away from my Coolmax base layer. I was cool and sweat free within 5 minutes. I have experienced the same thing with microfleece when out walking. I think the bottom line is that man made fibres, as well as some natural ones like wool, don't absorb water but they allow it to wick along the fibres.

Anyway, that's my theory which seems to work for me. Of course it may not work for everyone. :)

Martin
Yes I suspect you've got that right - its seems logical, for the same reason as poly/cotton being quicker drying than cotton. I have a microfleece top I bought with the ventile rainjacket from Snowsled a few years ago, and I think thats intended as a "wicking" base layer, in conjunction with the breathable jacket.

Thanks Martin - that's squared that up in my head mate!