An insight into SAR

[Marvell]

Should you find yourself up the proverbial creek, how long do you think that the SAR teams will keep looking for you? It's longer than you might expect. Yes, it does depend on terrain, light and a number of other factors, but ultimately, they don't take a casual look for you and think "bugger it", even if it's just the one person.

On a recent shout, between the lifeboats, the fishing boats, the choppers, the coast guard and the public, the search for a chap who was thought to have slipped on the rocks did not stop for 21 hours (with only 4-5am not covered) until he was found though everyone was prepared to keep going.

So how long do you think it would have carried on had he not been found?

[happybonzo]

Do you still get lots of hoax shouts? The scrotes used to break into a holiday home and make their calls to the emergency services from there; that way, there was a number for the operator to phone back to to see if it was a genuine call.
Cheapy inflatable boats: My pals up at Weston Super Mud rescued the same bloke and his kids 3 times in one day. One the third occasion that boat developed a leak in 107 different places...

[Bernie]

3 times in one day

Seriously!? They should have told him after the second time that he's credit was up. What an idiot.

[swkieran]

we get that sort of thing all the time round the corner here in tobay bernie,we locals have coined the phrase (birmingham navy) lol.i would never take to sea in an inflatable,youre dealing with a greater power than us,also for a couple more quid than there dinghy they can hire small vessels with life jackets,vhf,gps,first aid kit,flares etc etc lol.

[comanighttrain]

is there not some 72 hour rule wherafter the search is scaled down and the person is generally assumed to be dead?

I used to work in a hotel in the highlands where a lot of searches were sort of based from (the hele used to land and people would head out from nearby), I think they found everyone in the years i worked there....

[Silverback]

I can only comment on Land based SAR.

Each search has its own particular merits, and each search will be co-ordinated according to missing person stats (medical issues, vulnerability etc.) and behavoir and adjusted as information is received. In UK Land Based SAR the Police have primacy and as such it is they that make the final decisions. I have attended searches lasting a number of hours to a number of weeks - of course it would be improper of me to comment on individual jobs particularly on the internet.

[Marvell]

My pals up at Weston Super Mud rescued the same bloke and his kids 3 times in one day.


Seriously!? They should have told him after the second time that he's credit was up. What an idiot.

Unfortunately, boating, even ocean going, is not a regulated activity. So any wally can get out there. I remember a case of a chap who kept getting rescued after trying to get to Ireland with a road atlas.

I remember bringing a boat back from Hartland Point once. It was a river/canal boat really and in shocking condition too. We got it back to harbour and the Harbour Master, who was also the Chief Helm at the time, tore the skipper a new one, on the quay, in front of the crew, the hotel staff and about 200 tourists. Brilliant!

[Marvell]

is there not some 72 hour rule wherafter the search is scaled down and the person is generally assumed to be dead?

It certainly scales down. Essentially, as the days go on, someone in the sea is a) drifting and b) exposed. This both widens the search area and reduces the probability of survival. These two factors combined give us a probability of detection. The basic inequality is that if the probability of finding them is less than the probability that we have a problem ourselves, then we keep going at one level or another.

Three days is realistically all you'd search the shore for for a body that's not in a life jacket. The reality is that they will sink pretty quickly and not start floating for four or five days, assuming they are not caught in anything. The major problem is that after three days, the currents could take the body miles and chances of finding them, even if they do float is slim at best.

The previous body we took off the beach here in North Devon had been in the water over a month and had gone into the sea in Wales. The last fisherman we lost off locally washed up over two months later in Wales. Even though the Coast Guard has an excellent computer system for predicting position, the confidence levels get really small after a while.

[Edwin]

Do you really believe that boating should be regulated, tests and restrictions on permitted distances from harbour and all the rest of it? If it is too much trouble to look for someone in a rubber toy dinghy then give up, I gather it is voluntary, and the other services will do their duty by fellow citizens.

Freedom is being eroded all over with the sea nearly its last refuge and I would accept even some casualties and extra expense to keep that freedom.

[Marvell]

Do you really believe that boating should be regulated, tests and restrictions on permitted distances from harbour and all the rest of it? If it is too much trouble to look for someone in a rubber toy dinghy then give up, I gather it is voluntary, and the other services will do their duty by fellow citizens.

Yes, I think beyond a certain distance, civilian boatmen should be regulated, just like any professional boatman is.

I think anyone going beyond a certain distance (10 miles, say) should have a boat which has been checked out, like an MOT. I think that boat should have a radio, even if a hand held. I think everyone should be wearing a life jacket.

I think anyone going a great distance should have a boat with navigational equipment and a least one person should have had a basic half day course on navigation. I think that boat should also have a first aid kit.

I think anyone travelling in offshore or international waters should submit a passage plan.

I think anyone operating a boat above a certain size or power should have have passed a certain test to enter a harbour of a certain size.


Freedom is being eroded all over with the sea nearly its last refuge and I would accept even some casualties and extra expense to keep that freedom.

Do you think we should be free to drive uninsured cars, to fly planes without licenses or to go on a diving trip with any old gear?

Do you accept the death of lifeboatmen trying to save someone in a rowing boat trying to row to Ireland in a force 6 with a road atlas?

Do you accept the death of a yachtsman who is rammed by a Sunseeker who does not understand the rules of channels or how to keep watch?

Do you accept the death of a family who take a river boat around a rocky headland in a storm?

Just out of interest, who is paying for this extra expense you mention?

PS The opinions expressed is this post and subsequent posts are my own and do not reflect or represent those of the RNLI, HM Coast Guard or any SAR agency.

[Edwin]

Taxpayers seem to pay for everything else.

Hard cases making hard laws is a cliche but a true one and how does certification prevent stupidity?

Is that a great distance straight out or part way along the coast? Surely the direction headed makes a difference

[Edwin]

Would you have tax discs issued to every floating device showing insurance obtained and the details of what that particular craft was permitted to do with presumably a pocket next to it showing what the person in charge was certificated to do?

Who patrols the ten mile limit and stops boats to check on their credentials?

Nah! better to forbid any of us to go to sea unless in a boat belonging to a professional boatman.

[Marvell]

Taxpayers seem to pay for everything else.

The RNLI receives no government funding, it's a charity.


Hard cases making hard laws is a cliche but a true one and how does certification prevent stupidity?

It limits preventable accidents with basic knowledge, skills and good quality equipment. Stupidity happens at all levels, but people don't always get in trouble through stupidity, some are just naive. Most people who get cut off by the tide would have not so if they had know about tide timetables. No, I'm not suggesting all beach walkers should have a tide timetable, I'm just using it as an example of something that is really simple that could save many lives. Embarking on a voyage over 10 miles off shore is something that should not be undertaken lightly, as is the case with climbing a mountain or parachuting.


Is that a great distance straight out or part way along the coast? Surely the direction headed makes a difference

I don't think there is a general rule, but it's not beyond reason to suppose that the sea can be regionalised into safe, not so safe, a bit dangerous and effing dangerous, like weather can be, even though that's a bit more linear.

Lifeguards will put up flags on the beach to demarcate areas for swimmers and surfers. They will then try to bring people into these regions. This is to avoid dangerous rip tides, rocks and also crashes between swimmers and boarders. Do you think that lifeguards should try to monitor people using the whole of the bay, even though they don't have the numbers to manage all of the sea, extra man power to manage rocks & rips and all the other lark that goes with six foot of surfboard hitting swimmers? Those guys do what they do to allow them to manage a beach with the resources they have by imposing restrictions on use. The alternative is loss of life. If it's acceptable to let people get washed out because they don't understand how a rip tides works, then why bother having life guards at all?

Holiday makers are not expected to understand dangers on a beach, though they exist. These people are simply pootling around in 4 foot of water. This is somewhat different to rowing miles off shore.

I'm happy to swim between the flags life guards put up because that way I know I'm being looked out for, in case something happens. That's me being responsible.

[Marvell]

Would you have tax discs issued to every floating device showing insurance obtained and the details of what that particular craft was permitted to do with presumably a pocket next to it showing what the person in charge was certificated to do?

Who patrols the ten mile limit and stops boats to check on their credentials?

Nah! better to forbid any of us to go to sea unless in a boat belonging to a professional boatman.

It's a very different thing to employ forces to monitor as opposed to education and encouraging people to take responsibility for their actions. It's done with VHF transmission, planes and even paragliding, all of which are regulated and licensed.

I don't see people complaining that they can't buy a plane and fly it to America. This is because there is more awareness of their lack of experience and the dangers involved.

[Edwin]

As you have raised the parallel subject of Lifeguards let us examine the claims of them having made a difference in many many incidents on patrolled beaches and we are told not to enter the water on unlifeguarded beaches. So, if they had to intervene on the beaches they do look after what happened on the beaches with no lifeguard, very nearly nothing. Why this absence of mass drownings on unprotected beaches?

Are protected beaches inherently more dangerous so you are in fact safer swimming where there is no Lifeguard?

[Edwin]

I have no problem with education and voluntarily undertaken instruction but am totally against any form of compulsion especially when the evidence is so slight or the incidences are so few. Much the same with the ROSPA figures on drownings used to back up propaganda against open water swimming inland and on the sea.

How many people have drowned in tenders between their yacht and the shore who either possessed or were in the charge of someone possessing some RYA qualification. I believe that the answer is lots and is a significant part in the drowning figures of ROSPA, although not always acknowledged as such.

[Marvell]

As you have raised the parallel subject of Lifeguards let us examine the claims of them having made a difference in many many incidents on patrolled beaches and we are told not to enter the water on unlifeguarded beaches. So, if they had to intervene on the beaches they do look after what happened on the beaches with no lifeguard, very nearly nothing. Why this absence of mass drownings on unprotected beaches?

Are protected beaches inherently more dangerous so you are in fact safer swimming where there is no Lifeguard?

No, there are just more people on the patrolled ones. The reason there are less deaths on unprotected beaches is because there are less people on unprotected beaches.

[Marvell]

I have no problem with education and voluntarily undertaken instruction but am totally against any form of compulsion especially when the evidence is so slight or the incidences are so few. Much the same with the ROSPA figures on drownings used to back up propaganda against open water swimming inland and on the sea.

Can you let me know your point of research for the evidence being slight and the incidences being few.

Yes, we (the RNLI) get very few shouts. Only 27,000 people assisted last year. Bugger all really.


How many people have drowned in tenders between their yacht and the shore who either possessed or were in the charge of someone possessing some RYA qualification. I believe that the answer is lots and is a significant part in the drowning figures of ROSPA, although not always acknowledged as such.

Cite your source.

[Metal mug]

People are also quite often unaware of the dangers of things like muddy banks in estuaries. They wander out then get stuck, and then the tide comes in. :(

[Marvell]

Take the signs down, see if it makes a difference :)

[Metal mug]

Wonder what people are after in the mud? Old tyres? :D

[Edwin]

Are you saying I am wrong about overloaded yacht tenders?

Visit Cornwall's lifeguarded and unlifeguarded beaches and see if there are that many, if any fewer people, on them in Summer.

I wasn't referring to RNLI shouts but to the point you raised about lifeguards on beaches who claim to be very busy but I repeat the same level of need for assistance should exist on unlifeguarded beaches but it doesn't for some reason.

Why would one want to remove warning signs but would you have all beachgoers pass an exam in reading them before they were allowed to paddle?

I know the RNLI is a charity which is why I said that taxpayers seem to pay for everything else which are the helicopters etc.

But apart from all of this how would you implement and enforce your licensing schemes? And what evidence do you have that it would make any difference?

[Marvell]

I give up. It sounds like you just want to argue for argument sake. Have fun with that.

[Metal mug]

Just out of interest how long does it take to train a lifeboatman?


(Or woman)

[Marvell]

Depends on the station and the boat. A year is not out of the question, but you can end up on shouts before that.

[Silverback]

Depends on the station and the boat. A year is not out of the question, but you can end up on shouts before that.

Is that taking them with prior boating/at sea experience ? How often do you train ?

Interestingly it takes about the same length of time (12 months) to train an MRT member (also depending on team/regional requirements) there is however a list of 'core' skills every team member must have. Members then go on to do specialist training if they fulfill the criteria and have the time and money to do it

[Marvell]

Is that taking them with prior boating/at sea experience ? How often do you train ?

A minimum of once a month at least. I'm doing about four a month at the moment, but then we do have a number of new crew. There is no reason to suppose that a boatman and a land lubber both joining on day one will both make it out of probation at the same time. The boatman man be good with boats, but bad with communication or not so good with medical gear. The land lubber might pick up the boating really easy.

Saying all that, when the call comes, it might be that some who have been on the crew a couple of years get stood down because of the conditions. You never know.

[happybonzo]

The Lifeboat people used to be trained at Cowes; is it any different now?

[Silverback]

The Lifeboat people used to be trained at Cowes; is it any different now?

Poole state of the art training centre..amazing what you can do with millions in annual donations

http://www.rnli.org.uk/tlc_virtual_tour/

Steve. Do you know anyone in Bideford Sector CG ?

[Marvell]

Steve. Do you know anyone in Bideford Sector CG ?

I know the Hartland lot, but not any further really.

[Silverback]

I know the Hartland lot, but not any further really.

I have a mate works with them

[jus_young]

May know my good friend Laurie then

[Silverback]

May know my good friend Laurie then

Might very well too...easy to spot..he's the only one with a dog

[Silverback]

I know the Hartland lot, but not any further really.


Its ok my mate does know you I asked him...James and Poppy both instantly recognisable

[FishyFolk]

In Norway if you want to drive a boat that is more than 26 foot or has a motor with more than 25Hp requires a license. To get the licence you must prove that you meet a minimum standard in navigation and knowledge skille, but your practical ability in boat handling is not tested. If caught without a licence the fine is 540£ and you lose the right to drive a boat for a year.

However when they introduced the law, anyone born before 1979 is excempt, and do not need a license...But I have had one since I was 14. Took the course during 8th grade
as it was offered by my school as an extra subject :-)

Anyway, I go fishing in a 8 foot SIB (soft hull inflatable boat) with a Johnson 4hp outboard from 1973 at sea. I see no problem in that as long as I am aware what I am doing.

I carry a maritime VHF (waterproof, strapped to my body) and flares, wear a floatsuit so that SAR can spot my dead body (i'll be gone from exposure long before they find me in these waters). I listen to the weather fore cast, watch the skies around me and I know the signs of the weather changing and that happens FAST around here. Somebody always knows where I am going and when I plan to be back and I always SMS my wife every top of the hour when I am out (mostly for her sake, she worries). I never go into open waters, and I island hop.

Around here there is thousands of small islets and islands. So I plan my route so that if a have to cross a stretch of open water, I stay by the shore as far as I can, and then I go from Islet to Islet, so that I alwyas have some form of land nearby. If the weather turns too bad for me to get safely back, i can always go to shore or onto an islet. And I have a waterproof survival bag with everything a need to keep me going for a couple of days, so mostly I won't need rescue if I have to sit tight for a few days.

Life will be very boring if everything you do is to be 100% safe. Life as I see it is about risk management. I think the way I do it is way within acceptable risk...but I understand there are a few numpties
who are ignorant or simply ignore what the risks are. And thos that will have to deal with them have my sympaties. It's the same type of people you meet in the mountains wearing nothing but a jeans and a t-shirt on a nice summer day, unaware that they could be in fog as thick as soup or have a blizzard within 5 minutes, or like the French and Belgian tourists who wen't skiing down an avalanch run a month a ago....4 of them wenæ't home in a box....