Help for the homeless

[Edwin]

As well as donating money or volunteering for soup runs and things I wondered if there was something Bushcrafters could do for those who are having to live rough. Maybe fanciful or patronising but for someone living rough who didn't already know, knowledge of a brew kit they could get or assemble might be a godsend, for example.

[happybonzo]

Far too many "homeless" people are ex Services

[bigzee]

Yeah I dig where you're at with this. I don't suppose many of them get to sit round watching youtube and NBUK picking up tips like we do. I suppose we could knock up a pamphlet on recycled stovemaking techniques and get them distributed or deposited in homeless shelters. Meths is no longer drinkable like it used to be so that's not an issue. What may be however is the fragile nature of these stoves, and whether someone who may have psychological or behavioural difficulties, would be safe with them.

If they had info. on bushcraft skills they might be more inclined to gravitate towards "bush", and away from towns. After seeing a guy sleeping rough outside a local municipal buiding in Boston yesterday, I thought - if it was me I'd be heading for the country and woods full of raw materials. I suppose the uninformed mind "cannot se the wood for the trees"

[Silverback]

apparently according to statistics 1 in 10 homeless people are ex service personnel !

6% of all homless people in London are ex forces.

this charity is trying to help

http://www.soldiersoffthestreet.com/index.html

[Ben Casey]

Hi Guys I think it would be a great idea to do something I can speak from experience being ex forces and since I have been back in the UK I have been homeless about four times :( Maybe you wont believe it but none of it was my doing once my own mother kicked me out :(

Anyway over the years when I was stuck like that I always thought I will just go to the forests and survive but I was never quite sure how to go about it and the UK with all these stupid laws now well I sort of bottled it. If it hadnt been for the RBL and SSAFA I would have jumped of a bridge a long time ago. Anyway what about a place a guy could go where he could be away from civilization and if he wanted sleep sort of rough but in a bush craft style with support and stuff there if he was to ask?

I would love to be part of such a scheme if I ever got the chance but it never comes :(

Ben

[Silverback]

Likewise. I ended up on mates floors, B & B accomodation and even a garden shed.

I'd love to help too

[Ben Casey]

Likewise. I ended up on mates floors, B & B accomodation and even a garden shed.

I'd love to help too

I did offer my help with the RBL and SSAFA but they wanted case workers so I done the course but it wasnt what I was after :( I did write to the HQ's and say I wanted to help the homeless but they seemed more on the lines of case workers :( Maybe if we could get something of the ground it would be cool if anyone fancies we could give it a go I'm up for it and I could get in touch with them again if we could offer something :)

Let me know per PM or if anyone wants my number you can have it Im all for doing this :)

Ben

[bigzee]

I did offer my help with the RBL and SSAFA but they wanted case workers so I done the course but it wasnt what I was after :( I did write to the HQ's and say I wanted to help the homeless but they seemed more on the lines of case workers :( Maybe if we could get something of the ground it would be cool if anyone fancies we could give it a go I'm up for it and I could get in touch with them again if we could offer something :)

Let me know per PM or if anyone wants my number you can have it Im all for doing this :)

Ben
What are the RBL and the SSAFA? (I'm not ex services). Are they likely to co-op on such an idea do ya think?

[Silverback]

I did offer my help with the RBL and SSAFA but they wanted case workers so I done the course but it wasnt what I was after


Know what you mean. All some guys(and girls) need is a sympathetic and understanding ear, someone to pull up a sandbag/swing the lamp/ have a brew with. m prepared to listen/brew up and a trained medic too.

[Ben Casey]

What are the RBL and the SSAFA? (I'm not ex services). Are they likely to co-op on such an idea do ya think?

Sorry mate the Royal British Legion and The Soldiers Sailors Airforce Association they are there for ex Forces guys to help them out if they get stuck basically. But there are loads more now since Afghan like Combat Stress and Help for Heros but they are mainly for the guys now whereas the Royal British Legion and The Soldiers Sailors Airforce Association are there for all ex forces guys cambat Stress is to but us old Vets don't get Combat Stress just bad dreams I think.

Im not having a go at the guys now but I had Combat Stress to see me and I dont think they understood me :( But I dont think Im easy to understand LOL

[Silverback]

What are the RBL and the SSAFA? (I'm not ex services). Are they likely to co-op on such an idea do ya think?


Royal British Legion, and the Soldiers, Sailors And Air Forces Assoc.

[comanighttrain]

How come so many ex services end up in the ****? It may be niavety but I always assumed that we took care of our ex service personnel? My dad left with a war pension after getting sick in the army...

[Ben Casey]

Know what you mean. All some guys(and girls) need is a sympathetic and understanding ear, someone to pull up a sandbag/swing the lamp/ have a brew with. m prepared to listen/brew up and a trained medic too.

If you have a look on the RBL or SSAFA website they will have contact details they are always after people to help out I just wanted to ge more homeless help and get really heavy into it. I'm not a medic or anything but I worked as a carer in Germany with the whole range of the disable to (I dont know the name of it in English Sterbebegleitung basically I looked after people till they died). It was abit heavy at times but I loved the job and I always feel drawn towards trying to help people where I can.

[Ben Casey]

How come so many ex services end up in the ****? It may be niavety but I always assumed that we took care of our ex service personnel? My dad left with a war pension after getting sick in the army...

The military doesnt only the people who feel for them or guys that set up a support network there is the Veterans welfare but that is mainly pensions and War Pensions not any help if your stuck :( When I left the Army I just sort of walked out the gate and even now still wish I could go back :)

[swkieran]

How come so many ex services end up in the ****? It may be niavety but I always assumed that we took care of our ex service personnel? My dad left with a war pension after getting sick in the army...

youve got to be joking mate,the people in power never do enough for our service people in or out of the forces,its a disgrace,i could rant all night about it lol,my grandfather who was a sgt major in ww2 told me loads of storys and one of them sickens me to this day and i know it made my grandfather very bitter and angry,this old vet had lost his limbs, and because he could hobble around they cut his state benefits and he was forced to cycle around london to sell boxes of matches just to eat and to live,thank god for royal british legion and other organisations and all the hard work they do,but they shouldnt be doing it

[Silverback]

How come so many ex services end up in the ****? It may be niavety but I always assumed that we took care of our ex service personnel? My dad left with a war pension after getting sick in the army...

The Corps of Commisionaires was set up as a not for profit company to help service personnel into employment, BLESMA, Combat Stress, H4H, RBL, SSAFA............ all there for one reason and one reason only......because the state wasn't/isn't/can't/won't

[mrrivers]

apparently according to statistics 1 in 10 homeless people are ex service personnel !

6% of all homless people in London are ex forces.

this charity is trying to help

http://www.soldiersoffthestreet.com/index.html"]http://www.soldiersoffthestreet.com/index.html[/URL]




these guys are doing brilliant work. actually going out and helping ex service rough sleepers, a real shoestring job at the moment, but doing much better work than well funded others! good no nonsense people too.

contact them and if they are not doing anything in your area, they will try to do so. look them up on facebook.

[Ben Casey]

hi guys I think we have hit a note here so why don't we try our bit :) I wont have decent internet until the 7th but I will be back :) I think all the ex forces guys have stories to tell about there time. As we all had something going on in my case I only ever talk about the good times and if it is bad I like to make it funny anyways.

Hats of to the guys in at the min I wouldnt fancy there job for a million quid an hour and even when they are doing it they do it with pride for our country and not our goverment I think :)

I swore my oath to the Queen not the goverment :)

[happybonzo]

This country has always been very poor in the way that it looks after its ex-service personnel
This was one of the reasons that some people set up http://www.holidays4heroes.org/. We've done BBQs, held raffles, held sponsered parachute jumps etc even tried to sell Forum members for "services" (not really) Holidays4Heroes has tapped into the Spanish villa owners and take the villa when there are no bookings. Then we have to find the cost of the air fares plus some spending money
When Help4Heroes started they were overwhelmed by the response of the British public; so much so, that they had huge sums of money and, initially, had great difficulty in getting organisations to take it :)
The new swimming pool at Headleigh Court has been built by the money subscribed to Help4Heroes. Some of you may remember the reaction of the local swimming pool where the Headleigh Court people were asked not to bring limbless patients down for a swim. Now HC have their own
Some of the people are having a camping weekend up in Hereford where they will be painting The Boathouse (alledgedly) and also raising some more funds for Hols4H.

[Roadkillphil]

I swore my oath to the Queen not the goverment :)

Totally 100% agree there Ben.

Fortunately my job was beneficial to everyone and I now take pride in serving the Queen, and indeed the people I helped. When I first left, I had no pride, and if it wasn't for Emma, I'd probably be living wild too. I look at the forces personel now with pride and also pity, they may not be happy about the politics surrounding their job, but they took an oath to serve the Queen and they bravely do that job diligently and without falter.

Upon leaving, many folks are left scarred and ill-equipped for civilian life. This is the single greatest failing of the armed forces. They spend years tuning their personel to adapt to life in the forces and do not even attempt to help re tune them to civilian life upon leaving.
It took me months to adjust and in that time I experienced anxiety, hatred of society and a longing to be alone. Without Em, I wouldn't have made it through this transition.

I like the idea of some form of 'homeless' living training, a bit of urban bushcraft type thing for folks not wishing to enlist in post forces society...

What are you thinking of Ben? I'd be keen to help, any which way I can :D

All the best

Phil

[Silverback]

I swore my oath to the Queen not the goverment :)

snap!

[comanighttrain]

What a load of horse, everyone is willing to talk big when it comes to the military and how we look after the guys who more or less get put in the crappiest situations ever for, lets face, usually oil when we are told its for freedom or justice, then when they come back and all they can see when they shut their eyes is their best mate laying in bits...and the government have nothing for them? I was talking to two people today who both have family members with differing PTSD issues who are pretty much handicapped. All this and they are trying to stick my dad back into work although he is mostly incapacitated with mixed connective tissue disease whilst I know more than a few people who wont get off the dole and tell their doctor they **** the bed for £120 a week and a free house....

Really gets me quite angry

[Ben Casey]

Totally 100% agree there Ben.

Fortunately my job was beneficial to everyone and I now take pride in serving the Queen, and indeed the people I helped. When I first left, I had no pride, and if it wasn't for Emma, I'd probably be living wild too. I look at the forces personel now with pride and also pity, they may not be happy about the politics surrounding their job, but they took an oath to serve the Queen and they bravely do that job diligently and without falter.

Upon leaving, many folks are left scarred and ill-equipped for civilian life. This is the single greatest failing of the armed forces. They spend years tuning their personel to adapt to life in the forces and do not even attempt to help re tune them to civilian life upon leaving.
It took me months to adjust and in that time I experienced anxiety, hatred of society and a longing to be alone. Without Em, I wouldn't have made it through this transition.

I like the idea of some form of 'homeless' living training, a bit of urban bushcraft type thing for folks not wishing to enlist in post forces society...

What are you thinking of Ben? I'd be keen to help, any which way I can :D

All the best

Phil

Hi Phil and all why dont we throw some ideas around I'm sure we will come up with something I remember when I was in we used to go to old ranges like Otterburn where they had the old tin huts nothing fancy but you could live. If we could get a place like that as it is close to nature the old ranges and well it could be sorted to run some bush craft/Urban Skills and if guys get peeved of then we coiuld all just hit the trees and swing the sandbags till the early hours?

Im still in the middle of my move but when I have a phone line and internet I will give the RBL and SSAFA a ring to see if they can give me some pointers then I will get back to you all :) But anyone with a better idea is welcome or if anyone can jump the gun then that is cool :)

Maybe one of the guys on here will have an old contact or two?

Ben

[Silverback]

Maybe one of the guys on here will have an old contact or two?

Ben

I have access to a wonderful 'base' in the peak district that may tick all the boxes, and an old contact that may get us a tad closer to the 'block' than we think.....leave it with me

[swkieran]

What a load of horse, everyone is willing to talk big when it comes to the military and how we look after the guys who more or less get put in the crappiest situations ever for, lets face, usually oil when we are told its for freedom or justice, then when they come back and all they can see when they shut their eyes is their best mate laying in bits...and the government have nothing for them? I was talking to two people today who both have family members with differing PTSD issues who are pretty much handicapped. All this and they are trying to stick my dad back into work although he is mostly incapacitated with mixed connective tissue disease whilst I know more than a few people who wont get off the dole and tell their doctor they **** the bed for £120 a week and a free house....
Really gets me quite angry


i'ts not the people on the dole that is the problem m8,the money that should be going to equip our forces and to look after them in civi street is being paid to pakistan which we all know to be an active enemy,also to devolping countrys like india and china,also the money we pour in to the eu.my ex partner is in the royal logistics corp and she is defintly not the same person anymore,it's takin it's toll on her,i dont think people or our government actually realise,but hey ho she will always have a place to stay and my support and the support of her family.like i said i could rant on all day and all night lol,what we need to do is to start a petition and lobby our government and make sure our tax money goes to were it's needed most and not all jump on the gutter press's bandwagon i.e the unemployed and people who claim a pittance on sick pay,because its a smoke screen, the majority of the country is working and british people have never been lazy or workshy :)

[Ben Casey]

I have access to a wonderful 'base' in the peak district that may tick all the boxes, and an old contact that may get us a tad closer to the 'block' than we think.....leave it with me

Hi Mate that will be cool :)

[Ben Casey]

i'ts not the people on the dole that is the problem m8,the money that should be going to equip our forces and to look after them in civi street is being paid to pakistan which we all know to be an active enemy,also to devolping countrys like india and china,also the money we pour in to the eu.my ex partner is in the royal logistics corp and she is defintly not the same person anymore,it's takin it's toll on her,i dont think people or our government actually realise,but hey ho she will always have a place to stay and my support and the support of her family.like i said i could rant on all day and all night lol,what we need to do is to start a petition and lobby our government and make sure our tax money goes to were it's needed most and not all jump on the gutter press's bandwagon i.e the unemployed and people who claim a pittance on sick pay,because its a smoke screen, the majority of the country is working and british people have never been lazy or workshy :)

Hi Guys I don't think we should argue the right and wrongs and it will change the subject I think charity or aid and help should be dealt out at home first then if we have any left over we can help the world :) If we stopped fighting wars we could save billions but sadly for us people in power no matter what country will always find an excuse for a war :) Most of it is drivan by depression and the big companies pushing govermen into it :(

War takes its toll but it is only now really being publishized as back in the days of the first world war and going forth up until about the Falklands if you didnt fight or lost your bottle you where a chicken. I think it is great that people have changed there ways and are starting to know what it is when a guy or girl dives for cover when a car back fires.

Ben

[Silverback]

Hi Guys I don't think we should argue the right and wrongs and it will change the subject I think charity or aid and help should be dealt out at home first then if we have any left over we can help the world :) If we stopped fighting wars we could save billions but sadly for us people in power no matter what country will always find an excuse for a war :) Most of it is drivan by depression and the big companies pushing govermen into it :(

War takes its toll but it is only now really being publishized as back in the days of the first world war and going forth up until about the Falklands if you didnt fight or lost your bottle you where a chicken. I think it is great that people have changed there ways and are starting to know what it is when a guy or girl dives for cover when a car back fires.

Ben

Hear ,bl**dy hear !!

[mike 01302]

i spent 9 years as a paratrooper and loved every moment of it i got out as my son was born so had to choose to be a dad as apposed to a soilder once out it took about 3 years and lots of convictions for me to realise the prob was i just didnt fit in with my mentality the only problem with the army and particularly being a paratrooper is you are trained and encouraged to be aggrasive for years(to the point of actually being scared of yourself if that makes any sense) but once you choose to leave or are thrown out there is no "winddown time" to calm down realise your faults and just chill out and if you go "away to sea" your just back to square 1 dont get me wrong i loved enjoyed and am very proud of my time served just wish i had the same training when leaveing as when joining

[Edwin]

I am not denigrating anybody's experiences but I am puzzled as to how my Dad and thousands like him served four years continuously abroad with the 8th Army, was at El Alamein, the Sicily Landings and Monte Cassino. He was then unemployed for a year and eventually trained as a teacher but didn't complain except about Montgomery and readjusted gratefully to civilian life, he was a conscript as well not a volunteer. What was different then to now?

[mike 01302]

hey we not complaining just telling it like it is my friend did you ever sit down and ask your dad how difficult it was when he got out what changes he had to adjust to ???prob not, as i suspect your father would have felt the same as every single one of the old soilders i have spoken to think about it he not going to tell it all to their kids are they ?

[swkieran]

because the girls and lads today are fighting something new not western type people,and whatever people say about the afghans or (parthans),there a hard nut to crack,a dedicated determined lot when you think about what there fighting with aswell there completly outgunned no air power etc,and yet there still pinning us down,weve been chucked out before back in the empire days,but it wasnt afghanistan then it was called the north west frontier,the russians were kicked out a few years ago.i'ts a living hell out there edwin you dont sleep for days on end and youre constantly on guard,the heat is unbearable and then you have to bury youre comrades.im really pro british forces and respect and admire them,there the reason everybody in our country can sleep at night and go to work do the normal things we take for granted.i wasn't pro war and i think this gaddafi buisness could be handled in a different way i.e send the sas in and take him out instead of dropping bombs on libya and innocent people and spending yet more money to rebuild another distant place,but this country sadly will always be at war because to coin a phrase out of the footbal factory its an island race. with so many blood mixtures weve got a really compasionate caring streak but also a very war like one,britain has a facinating history but it's also one of bloodshed and fighting,from the beginin of the first peoples the celts right through to the modern day.theres 3 lines in me irish,swedish and welsh that i know of

[Ben Casey]

To do service for your country and to fight in any war it does not matter with whom your fighting and killing it is all the same your pulling a trigger and hopefully faster than the guy in front of you. Even in training if you let your mind wander to the thought of what death is and the pain then you can't do the job in hand. Back in the days of WW2 people did not talk about things that happend but in todays open media and internet things of all types can be discussed in open and chewed over. I'm sure all the guys out there whos fathers fought in wars never told them what happend and the change over seemed to go smoothly.

When I left I tried to keep all the problems of the change over hidden from my son all he ever knew was I was in the Army then I left. The arguments I had with his mother or the upsets we had he never saw or knew about.

One reason I find bushcraft so good is is because when society gets to me I can sit in the woods esp at nights just all dark and listen to the world smell the smoke of a campfire and feel safe and happy that Im on my own. But it goes even better when I'm around people who know what I'm talking about and understand where I'm coming from. I left in 93 bit the feeling of going out the camp gates feeling naked feels like yesterday.

Ben

[Roadkillphil]

just wish i had the same training when leaveing as when joining

Exactly, the forces conditions a person through basic training, phase 2 and then the rest of their time served totally differently to any civilian i know. You are drilled into having different values than civillians, normal societies rules no longer apply, and in some idiots cases they insist you are "better" than the average civvy. If like me you joined straight from school, spent most of your forces career around dead or dying people and body parts, then the adjustment to normal civillian lifestyle can be a shocker.
An end of time served training to De-Squaddify personel would be beneficial to all.

In response to Edwin, i would never dream of "complaining" to my children about how the transition to civilian life was difficult, let alone discuss with them the horrific fallout of war that I and many others mopped up in the Balkans. I have no doubt your father served proudly, the same pride with which he chose not to unload his wartime woes upon you.

Ben, Emma is 100% behind you, being ex forces too and having experienced living with a dude with PTS, she supports the ideas within this thread.

[Ben Casey]

Hi Phil it is nice to hear I think everyone supports the idea we just need to get it in action now :)

[Edwin]

Perhaps I used the wrong word, complaining, what I meant was he never mentioned (complained of) any symptoms related to the stress of his experience, the Montgomery reference was to Dad's annoyance with the whole Monty myth especially Monty's actions at the Mareth Line and the conduct of Operation Pugilist.

It must have been a different sort of war, Mum recalled that on seeing a lorry load of Afrika Corp POWs Dad climbed up onto the tailboard, to their initial consternation at seeing his 8th Army flashes, and tossed in his cigarette ration.

[swkieran]

edwin unfortunatly it's a different world,i read to my horror that there is going to be a british television programme on the il's and wrong doing's of iran,who had an empire when we were in round houses iran as its called today by us,are the persians .i wish david cameron would wake up,for god's sake we are not the worlds police lol.we are a tiny yet great island in the atlantic ocean,we also share this world with other nations and people,we are all human beings with a short life span the world will continue after we have gone.our creator must be looking down somedays and thinking ohhhhh for f sake what have i created

[MikeWilkinson]

Just saw this thread, Reminded me of my experiance when my old man left the forces after 28 years service. I just happened to be prepping for my RCB at the time, so kind of had a rather special bond to the old chap that has never really disappeared. I think your all right that the forces do not do enough to prep/adjust servicemen for civvie life, particularly those who have done active tours. My old man was quite fortunate that we have been a services family for over 7 generations and that the family and friends support base was huge. He still cried everynight for six months after his UN tour in Bosnia and his mood swings were terrible, I have the upmost respect for my mother putting up with him for that period. He never really speaks about it, his medals are on display in the lavvie. The only time he have has ever gone into any details was after I passed RCB and we went out and got mentally drunk - the only time in fact he has spoken to anyone about it - and it was more of a warning -'I hope for god sake you never have too...' kind of affair. I got married before I finished Uni and in the end gave up on a full time career, instead doing 7 years with the TA infantry, my dad has never looked so relieved.

As for real old timers not seeming to be affected by their service in WWII, they sure in hell were, however being that the whole country was in a state of shock at the numbers of people who died, the support that friends and relatives and even friends who had lost someone was astounding, and the whole conflict was very much in the hearts of everyone. Sadly today many people shun soldiers seeing them as dirtied by the deeds that they have had to do. Societies and families in general are split as to the reasons for some conflicts and the support from friends and families is no longer there, instead replaced with fear and anger.


I'd gladly lend my services to support the ideas being put together in this thread.

Mike

[Ben Casey]

Well said mate :)

[happybonzo]

it wasnt afghanistan then it was called the north west frontier.i'ts a living hell out there

Just to say, that if any of you "enjoyed" Afghan, you're going to love Yemen

[Roadkillphil]

Well said mate :)

Seconded :)

[Edwin]

In what way are soldiers "shunned" especially these days? We hear of the "military covenant" nowadays but it wasn't mentioned to my certain knowledge for the (approx) previous fifty years, If any conditions of service personnel improved over that time then how could politician soldiers with an axe to grind claim that it had been broken having suddenly, apparently, discovered it?

Things were worst for all working people in the past, for example, teacher's used not to have a widow's pension provision as part of their pension thus when my dad died my mother got no proportion of his pension. As a charming gesture, because he died early on in the month the pension people wrote to mum and asked for 25 days pension back. And, of course it is getting so again for all public servants with attacks on pensions and wages, people who are supposed to maintain the sort of Britain that I imagine you joined up to protect.

[Ben Casey]

In what way are soldiers "shunned" especially these days? We hear of the "military covenant" nowadays but it wasn't mentioned to my certain knowledge for the (approx) previous fifty years, If any conditions of service personnel improved over that time then how could politician soldiers with an axe to grind claim that it had been broken having suddenly, apparently, discovered it?

Things were worst for all working people in the past, for example, teacher's used not to have a widow's pension provision as part of their pension thus when my dad died my mother got no proportion of his pension. As a charming gesture, because he died early on in the month the pension people wrote to mum and asked for 25 days pension back. And, of course it is getting so again for all public servants with attacks on pensions and wages, people who are supposed to maintain the sort of Britain that I imagine you joined up to protect.

I don't think we are talking about the same thing if you want I'm sure we could start up a support thread for that to but then when I left the Army I was a civil Servant and a teacher so I know basically more ends of the barrel than a teacher does :) I never meet any ex teachers in the Army running around with me or civil servants for that matter. But mind you when I was a teacher I loved getting nearly 20 quid an hour for sitting on my backside not doing a lot and then well every time the kids went on holiday I could go and get another job and earn even more money :)

I think we are talking about the forces/Ex forces guys who come out and could do with some help in someway of maybe getting back on track instead of the streets. What would you prefer we let our guys get abused in the forces then c**p on them when they come out?

The civvies have unions fighting for them who fights for our guys they are not allowed a union it would be great if they did tho every time some one said we had to go to war they could go on strike :D

Then where would you be? You would either be a German citizen by now and if not your first language would be Russian

[Edwin]

I don't think we are talking about the same thing if you want I'm sure we could start up a support thread for that to but then when I left the Army I was a civil Servant and a teacher so I know basically more ends of the barrel than a teacher does :) I never meet any ex teachers in the Army running around with me or civil servants for that matter. But mind you when I was a teacher I loved getting nearly 20 quid an hour for sitting on my backside not doing a lot and then well every time the kids went on holiday I could go and get another job and earn even more money :)

I think we are talking about the forces/Ex forces guys who come out and could do with some help in someway of maybe getting back on track instead of the streets. What would you prefer we let our guys get abused in the forces then c**p on them when they come out?

The civvies have unions fighting for them who fights for our guys they are not allowed a union it would be great if they did tho every time some one said we had to go to war they could go on strike :D

Then where would you be? You would either be a German citizen by now and if not your first language would be Russian

IF all you did was sit around then you weren't doing the job you were paid for and should have been ashamed. Of course I wouldn't prefer that ex-service people be abused, I started this thread after all.

The wars against Germany were mostly fought and won by thousands of conscripted civilians and the Cold war by us collectively holding our nerve and having well-trained forces.

So you think that soldiers would vote/strike not to fight? Not the military people I have talked to. Of course, in my civilian ignorance I do wonder at some of the tactics being used but mustn't blame officers and generals because it must be the politicians' fault.

Incidentally when I worked at 10 AEC, Tidworth, I did meet several ex-teachers who were then in the Army.

[Ben Casey]

Incidentally when I worked at 10 AEC, Tidworth, I did meet several ex-teachers who were then in the Army.

Hi they where teachers in the Army the same as teachers in civvie street we just had to call them Sir as they all had commisions anyway I would rather het back to where we were and that is I think most of us wanted to try and do something for the lads serving now and ex lads :) Serving and ex serving

[Edwin]

<I would rather het back to where we were and that is I think most of us wanted to try and do something for the lads serving now and ex lads Serving and ex serving >

Sure

[happybonzo]

In case you haven't seen it, I'll post the link http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01175hg

[Ben Casey]

In case you haven't seen it, I'll post the link http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01175hg

Hi thanks for the link Phil I missed it when it was on so I will catch up with it in a min :)

[happybonzo]

There's an equally troubling programme on iPlayer on child poverty. The dignity of the children who took part is quite distressing.
Of the EU countries surveyed the UK came in 18th, just ahead of the likes of Hungery, Poland, Italy and one other that I cannot remember.
It has been said that one can tell a lot about a country by the way they treat their children and old people.
When it comes to our treatment of the Armed Forces nothing seems to have altered from when Kipling wrote that poem, does it?

If you get a chance, have a look at this programme. It is not easy viewing
Here's a link (http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b011vnls/Poor_Kids/)

[Ben Casey]

There's an equally troubling programme on iPlayer on child poverty. The dignity of the children who took part is quite distressing.
Of the EU countries surveyed the UK came in 18th, just ahead of the likes of Hungery, Poland, Italy and one other that I cannot remember.
It has been said that one can tell a lot about a country by the way they treat their children and old people.
When it comes to our treatment of the Armed Forces nothing seems to have altered from when Kipling wrote that poem, does it?

If you get a chance, have a look at this programme. It is not easy viewing
Here's a link (http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b011vnls/Poor_Kids/)

I caught that one last night but missed the other to be honest the way we are treated in general is really bad :( But we take it if everyone went out and done a peacefull strike the goverment would be able to do nothing :) The only problem is there is no one to replace them as they are all the same :(

[Edwin]

<When it comes to our treatment of the Armed Forces nothing seems to have altered from when Kipling wrote that poem, does it?>

I am sorry but nonsense like this can't be allowed to pass without comment. Kipling's poem, if it is the one with "chuck 'im out the brute" in it, refers to a situation that was already going if not gone in Kipling's day. Since when has a modern soldier been refused admission to a Music Hall or Pub? I know it is fashionable for everybody to be a victim but you ain't.

I am not saying that they shouldn't be but wounded soldiers, for example, can expect better treatment and after care than the victim of an industrial accident. Given that both have similar injuries is the civilian a lesser being?

[happybonzo]

<When it comes to our treatment of the Armed Forces nothing seems to have altered from when Kipling wrote that poem, does it?>

I am sorry but nonsense like this can't be allowed to pass without comment. Kipling's poem, if it is the one with "chuck 'im out the brute" in it, refers to a situation that was already going if not gone in Kipling's day. Since when has a modern soldier been refused admission to a Music Hall or Pub? I know it is fashionable for everybody to be a victim but you ain't.

I am not saying that they shouldn't be but wounded soldiers, for example, can expect better treatment and after care than the victim of an industrial accident. Given that both have similar injuries is the civilian a lesser being?

It was the Kipling poem that I had in mind and was used as an example of the what may and does happen
As to "wounded" soldiers being able to expect better treatment I would like to think that you are right in what you say; I had in mind the soldiers from Headley Court who were asked to leave a swimming pool because the sight of their amputations were upsetting the children. The people had been taken there for therapy. It must have been a nice knock back for their all ready damaged self esteem.
No doubt if a civilian amputee was at that swimming pool he or she would have received the same treatment but they were not

[Edwin]

Just seen Crimewatch Roadshow this morning. Ex-pub landlord lost leg after two years of operations following a robbery and assault, don't see why he should receive any less compensation and support than a wounded soldier but he does. And the irony is that if he had been armed in some way and fought off or, heaven forbid, hurt one of his attackers he would most likely have been prosecuted.

And how common was the swimming pool incident? Rare enough to get in the papers so just a local jobsworth aberration I guess.

[happybonzo]

It was because of the "swimming pool incident" that Help4Heroes was able to approach Headley Court and offer the money to provide them with a pool of their own.
One would hope that the facilities built will be open to all who have need of it.

[Silverback]

I have stayed out of this on purpose but now i have to question the threads direction. Is this really the place to debate the care/treatment issues ? Nope I dont think so. The original post was about helping those who are obviously not getting help can we get it back on track please.

Edwin. There are many many service personnel out there that have been deeply affected by what they saw and were called upon to do - most prefer not to put down their specifics on a web forum for the world to see. Since the war & Korea the type of deployment and warfare has changed considerably.

The most predominant type of deployment in recent years is that of peacekeeping duties and any squaddie who was on Op Grapple for instance will have some particularly harrowing memories to pass on when in the right frame of mind and possibly many more that creep up when they least expect it. Its only through campaigning that the rules on compensation etc are changing - take the Ghurkas as a perfect example.

Lets leave it there eh ?



"The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though, is that the sheepdog must not, can not and will not ever harm the sheep. Any sheep dog who intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed. The world cannot work any other way, at least not in a representative democracy or a republic such as ours.

Still, the sheepdog disturbs the sheep. He is a constant reminder that there are wolves in the land. They would prefer that he didn't tell them where to go, or give them traffic tickets, or stand at the ready in our airports in camouflage fatigues holding an M-16. The sheep would much rather have the sheepdog cash in his fangs, spray paint himself white, and go, "Baa."

Until the wolf shows up. Then the entire flock tries desperately to hide behind one lonely sheepdog. "

By LTC (RET) Dave Grossman, author of "On Killing."

[Edwin]

You ask to drop the subject then give a highly contentious quotation. For a start, when have the people of this country been sheep? Then you raise obliquely the whole martial versus militaristic question. There is no doubt that we are a martial nation but since the English Civil War have been, quite rightly, suspicious of militarism. I fear that this is creeping in and is dangerous for the body politic because part of the progress of this is to denigrate the political system. Yes, some politicians are detestable but the system is not. What would you put in its place, remember that Juntas require an even more sheeplike population.

I remember when living in Tidworth in the Sixties, military personnel couldn't get out of their uniforms quick enough. Not because they were in any way ashamed but knew that they were part of the civilian whole. Now uniforms seem to be worn all the time and I ask if this constant separation from civilians is a good thing? Incidentally back in the Sixties soldiers would have smart non camo uniforms that were worn on appropriate occasions, have these ceased to be issued?

[Silverback]

This is not the thread for political debate. I wont enter into political debate full stop, however you seem to be actively seeking one - for that can i suggest you start another thread ?

2 final points.

1.cammo uniforms are worn because cammo is an effective way of keeping your soldiers unseen and therefore alive...in combat. However the first rule of military operations is to remember that your equipment was supplied by the lowest bidder so having one uniform is more cost effective as we see now with MTP.

2.In the eighties/nineties we weren't allowed to wear uniform off camp and civvy jaclkets must be worn over service dress - why because of the percieved threat from the IRA at the time, until last year that threat had all but gone following the draw down and the Anglo Irish accord.


Lastly as Bob Dylan sang..these times are a changing - the world has changed far beyond my recognition in my short time on this earth - it must have changed a hell of a lot since the sixties

endex

[Edwin]

Did I refer to civilians as sheep?

[Ben Casey]

I cant be bothered with all this c**p if anyone fancies trying to do something then we have the PM method or like I said you can have my mobile number it isnt a problem for me :)

Lets just disband the Armd Forces save millions of pounds and become so extreme religion in a few years as that is what would happen the strongest always wants more than he has :(
And in any survival or end of the world event it is them that would survive not your lets debate everything and be nice to each other people because sure as H*LL while your saying lets discuss this peace of meat that will keep us alive and share it they would be killing you and when the meat was gone would have you for afters :D

PM please if you wish to carry on trying to help I'm going to ignore the trhead now it has gone a bit silly :)

[Edwin]

"I cant be bothered with all this c**p"

Saves anybody the trouble of trying to interpret your inarticulate ranting then.

PS. I don't turn the other cheek.

[Silverback]

Did I refer to civilians as sheep?

No this bloke did read the quote - "By LtCol (RET) Dave Grossman, author of "On Killing." "

Ben I'll PM you re the land and accom. I have had an answer from my contacts