Top Layer/Waterproof Layer

[comanighttrain]

Can anyone recommend one?

my ol £30 jacket that came with waterproof trousers (which ripped!) isn't cutting it....

I seen this thread: http://www.naturalbushcraft.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?501-New-jacket

I'm caught between the "Buy cheap by twice" method of thinking and the "Someone gonnay nick that" thinking....

I was looking at this one: http://www.countryinnovation.com/kestrel-smock-1.html but its a tad expensive i think....

Will probably get the Keela Munro Jacket (http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B002DPUCG2/ref=asc_df_B002DPUCG24609377/?tag=googlecouk06-21&creative=22110&creativeASIN=B002DPUCG2&linkCode=asn) in olive black

I don't like wearing Camo gear but I also dont like being a florescent dot...

any recommendations?

[Silverback]

Keela Munro is bombproof Dave. Keela kit increasingly being used by HMF and Police as well as MRT so it has a fairly good pedigree.....I have a Keela Munro (issued).

However I have to admit I'm a big Paramo fan and given a choice of the two I default to picking up my Paramo. I also wear a ventile smock when out doing bushy stuff

W

[Martin]

Second vote for Paramo mate. I've got a Goretex Pro Shell Moutain Equipment coat and when the going gets tough it still sweats up. I've also had Event kit with no better results.

Paramo is bloody dear but it's top top quality gear.

Martin

[comanighttrain]

flamin nora...some of those paramo jackets are more expensive than my tent!

Do like the looks of some of them though....think itll have to be the Keela or something around that price range though... I just need a purely waterproof layer

[Silverback]

flamin nora...some of those paramo jackets are more expensive than my tent!

Thing is Dave the guarantee on them is for the lifetime of the wearer, it doesnt rustle and in the average lifetime of a Paramo jacket you would buy 2 or even 3 laminate jackets. Have a look on flea bay there are some good deals on there. Paramo have a seconds shop too.

[Reaps72]

Hey there sir

I will whole heartedly recommend the Rab Latok Alpine @ £150-£190. Expensive yes but I am blown away by its performance & I used to be buy a bargain man & my last jacket was a craghopper tri-climate type, which was also bomb proof, if a little elderly gent according to my missus! eVent fabric works brilliantly in the wet & wild, the breathability is magnificent & I can be a sweaty fella!

[Martin]

flamin nora...some of those paramo jackets are more expensive than my tent!

Do like the looks of some of them though....think itll have to be the Keela or something around that price range though... I just need a purely waterproof layer

True, true but chances are, you'll spend more time in the coat than you will in the tent. Let's face it, £200 for a coat divided by the amount of wear you'll get out of it is quite a good deal.

Martin

[MikeWilkinson]

Going down the Budget route, budget thinking route, then I use the SAS kit sniper smock in unison with a Karrimor weathertite jacket, the Smock costs about £60 and is great to use in light rain and as a general top layer, the weathertite I wear beneath the smock when the rain really gets going.

The Smock works very much like the paramo jacket in that the the outer material swells as it gets wet and then begins to repel water as the gap between fibres shrink. However it and its real military equivalents were never designed to be absoulte storm proof (neither is the paramo to be honest!). The military smocks are designed to be worn with a Goretex jacket beneath them when the weather gets real bad (beneath because the smock stops the sound of the Goretex rustling and protects it from snagging and tearing when your crawling through the hooley in the darkness!!)

I use the Weathertite in a smiliar fashion and have found it to be an excellent combination. I've also had good use of a Regatta Mountian Jacket that i picked up for £40 in TK MAXX. I've had it about 5 years and it is still going strong.

2563

I prefer the smock combo though as the smock is a little more fire retardant and easier to clean. I also don't worry so much about snagging it, unlike wearing just a waterproof top.

Don't get me wrong I'd love a Paramo Jacket, I'd just be too afraid to use it in the field!

[Silverback]

Don't get me wrong I'd love a Paramo Jacket, I'd just be too afraid to use it in the field!

I do use it in the field and those that know me on here know just what a battering mine can get. From standing around in the rain and wind all day to scrambling over rocks and in snow. I am lucky to get it issued, but only in one colour though.

Paramo doesnt actually work in the way you describe Mike. According to them the outer layer is designed to break up water droplets and still requires proofing with nikwax or similar, the innner parameta fabric is designed to mimic animal fur and drive away water from the inside - and it works. Also a bit like buffalo clothing even when completely wet you still stay warm and its amazing how little you have to work to start to dry out.

However like you I favour the smock and I have an issue ventile smock in black which performs perfectly well especially combined with a buffalo wind shirt or base layers.

[GwersyllaCnau]

Love my Berghaus cornice, its never let me down.

http://www.fieldandtrek.com/berghaus-cornice-long-jacket-443274

[Woodwose]

I got a Paramo cascada jacket issued when I worked in the woods. It was the most breathable waterproof jacket I have ever used. If you are using it in thorny woodlands you may fare better with a tougher outer jacket. I still like the look of the Deer hunter Montana jacket.
http:
//www.swillingtonshootingsupplies.co.uk/store/product/4917/Deerhunter-Montana-Jacket-APG/ (http://www.swillingtonshootingsupplies.co.uk/store/product/4917/Deerhunter-Montana-Jacket-APG/)

Also available in plain green.

[comanighttrain]

cheers for all the replies chappies!

For the Smock - I have considered it on and off a bit. I do have something already that covers the "warm when wet" base though. I suppose what im looking for something for keeping out a real wet and windy storm. Kinda why im thinking that some sort of laminate top layer would be the best choice? However it is a good point that the smock doesnt melt when your sitting in camp... my other "warm when wet" item actually has a fire warning on it....

I'll have a look on evilbay for a paramo... i might just go for the munro jacket though for the time being... arggg... realistically over a long enough period of time i will probably own both....

[comanighttrain]

I got a Paramo cascada jacket issued when I worked in the woods. It was the most breathable waterproof jacket I have ever used. If you are using it in thorny woodlands you may fare better with a tougher outer jacket. I still like the look of the Deer hunter Montana jacket.
http:
//www.swillingtonshootingsupplies.co.uk/store/product/4917/Deerhunter-Montana-Jacket-APG/ (http://www.swillingtonshootingsupplies.co.uk/store/product/4917/Deerhunter-Montana-Jacket-APG/)

Also available in plain green.

The cascada is available for not much more than the munro....

How waterproof is it? hold up to a storm?

[comanighttrain]

Hey there sir

I will whole heartedly recommend the Rab Latok Alpine @ £150-£190. Expensive yes but I am blown away by its performance & I used to be buy a bargain man & my last jacket was a craghopper tri-climate type, which was also bomb proof, if a little elderly gent according to my missus! eVent fabric works brilliantly in the wet & wild, the breathability is magnificent & I can be a sweaty fella!

I'be heard a lot about Rab...never tried any of their gear though

[comanighttrain]

Love my Berghaus cornice, its never let me down.

http://www.fieldandtrek.com/berghaus-cornice-long-jacket-443274

I've been impressed with my berghaus trousers so far...use them for bushing, cllimbing and hill walking...

[Martin]

I'be heard a lot about Rab...never tried any of their gear though

Got a pair of Rab lightweight walking trousers. Best trousers I've had for walking, they're really light weight, keep you cool in the summer and dry in no time when they get wet. Good design and very well put together. I also have a couple of pairs of Montane Terra Pants and I really prefer the Rabs.

Martin

[Reaps72]

Got a pair of Rab lightweight walking trousers. Best trousers I've had for walking, they're really light weight, keep you cool in the summer and dry in no time when they get wet. Good design and very well put together. I also have a couple of pairs of Montane Terra Pants and I really prefer the Rabs.

Martin

Like wise with the Jacket, Rab kit just works & blooooooommmmmiiiinnnnn brilliantly, got a soft-shell & some gloves now too & guess what they are blooomin brill too!

[comanighttrain]

Going down the Budget route, budget thinking route, then I use the SAS kit sniper smock in unison with a Karrimor weathertite jacket, the Smock costs about £60 and is great to use in light rain and as a general top layer, the weathertite I wear beneath the smock when the rain really gets going.

The Smock works very much like the paramo jacket in that the the outer material swells as it gets wet and then begins to repel water as the gap between fibres shrink. However it and its real military equivalents were never designed to be absoulte storm proof (neither is the paramo to be honest!). The military smocks are designed to be worn with a Goretex jacket beneath them when the weather gets real bad (beneath because the smock stops the sound of the Goretex rustling and protects it from snagging and tearing when your crawling through the hooley in the darkness!!)

I use the Weathertite in a smiliar fashion and have found it to be an excellent combination. I've also had good use of a Regatta Mountian Jacket that i picked up for £40 in TK MAXX. I've had it about 5 years and it is still going strong.

2563

I prefer the smock combo though as the smock is a little more fire retardant and easier to clean. I also don't worry so much about snagging it, unlike wearing just a waterproof top.

Don't get me wrong I'd love a Paramo Jacket, I'd just be too afraid to use it in the field!

Could you link me to the smock itself? i might actually get a lot of use out of one anyway

[Silverback]

I suppose what im looking for something for keeping out a real wet and windy storm. Kinda why im thinking that some sort of laminate top layer would be the best choice?
.

A poncho ? Dutch one in particular

[comanighttrain]

ahhh...also has to have a low wind profile... I do have the Dutch poncho actually

[Woodwose]

The cascada is available for not much more than the munro....

How waterproof is it? hold up to a storm?

How well the Cascada jacket would cope on a windswept torrential rain lashed Rannoch moor (or a nice summer day in Scotland :) ) I can’t say.
But I wore that jacket through some pretty grim days and it’s performance was excellent.
I have looked on the Paramo site and they recommend washing the jacket with Techwash every 4-8 weeks of regular wear. That seems very excessive and expensive to me. I never washed it once and it still worked OK for me.

[Silverback]

The cascada is available for not much more than the munro....

How waterproof is it? hold up to a storm?

Dave you know what I get up to in my spare time, my Paramo has seen most weathers and very, very varied terrain. Its no accident that its the chosen garment for many a SAR team -

[comanighttrain]

Dave you know what I get up to in my spare time, my Paramo has seen most weathers and very, very varied terrain. Its no accident that its the chosen garment for many a SAR team -

of course... alright i think i will go for this one:)

cheers guys!

[Martin]

Oops!! I have a proper love/hate relationship going with this forum. I had absolutely no plans to buy a new Paramo Velez Adventure Smock in Fire/Chilli Pepper until Dave asked this question!! Grrrrr!!!

Just like this:

2577

Hope it arrives before we set off for Dartmoor. :D

Martin

[comanighttrain]

damn I was looking at that too....

[Wrighty28]

both nice jackets tbh. for me i tend to stick to ex/ current military spec for windproof waterproof items. my reason for this is you get a best of both worlds. primarily, reason number one, there fit for purpose. lots of pockets, tough, light, rugged, (depending on how you load yourself out, DPM/ MTP), and 9 times out of 10 reletivly cheap as there generally surplus and in ready supply. also designed to keep you cool when hot and hot when cold!

- just adding, not all gear you can buy ex - military has to be camo! I've got a white smock (saving for winter) and black smock alongside some DPM and MTP.

[Martin]

damn I was looking at that too....

I thought you were bidding on the blue one. :D

Martin

[comanighttrain]

ahh nah i hate blue... green, khaki or black has to be...

[comanighttrain]

both nice jackets tbh. for me i tend to stick to ex/ current military spec for windproof waterproof items. my reason for this is you get a best of both worlds. primarily, reason number one, there fit for purpose. lots of pockets, tough, light, rugged, (depending on how you load yourself out, DPM/ MTP), and 9 times out of 10 reletivly cheap as there generally surplus and in ready supply. also designed to keep you cool when hot and hot when cold!

- just adding, not all gear you can buy ex - military has to be camo! I've got a white smock (saving for winter) and black smock alongside some DPM and MTP.

I have always found army gear to be heavier than the civvy equiv...what is the army waterproof jacket?

[Silverback]

I have always found army gear to be heavier than the civvy equiv...what is the army waterproof jacket?

Back in my day it was a horrible rubberised nylon type thingy, but it was good at keeping you dry if you were standing still. The current jacket is made of a laminate fabric and seems to be ok to be honest. If you want to go cheaper than pramo you could do alot worse than a Karrimor enforcer or Keela Munro as I said before. Both fit for purpose both Enforcer and Munro used by Police DPG,OSU,Dogs and Firearms.

Met Police K9 handlers have Paramo too. Not sure if its issued. Last comment on Paramo. I got an Aspira smock in 2003 (in red, for obvious reasons) here we are in 2011 and its still going strong, despite wearing it when training, and on ops with the exception only of the summer months. My Gore - Tex jacket on the other hand is delaminating and leaks like a seive

[comanighttrain]

Back in my day it was a horrible rubberised nylon type thingy, but it was good at keeping you dry if you were standing still. The current jacket is made of a laminate fabric and seems to be ok to be honest. If you want to go cheaper than pramo you could do alot worse than a Karrimor enforcer or Keela Munro as I said before. Both fit for purpose both Enforcer and Munro used by Police DPG,OSU,Dogs and Firearms.

Met Police K9 handlers have Paramo too. Not sure if its issued. Last comment on Paramo. I got an Aspira smock in 2003 (in red, for obvious reasons) here we are in 2011 and its still going strong, despite wearing it when training, and on ops with the exception only of the summer months. My Gore - Tex jacket on the other hand is delaminating and leaks like a seive

nah nah, heeding the advice here... going to get the smock or the cascada jacket... i think its worth saving another month then going for that.... probably the jacket

[MikeWilkinson]

Link to the Bushcraft store and the SAS kit carry smock in Olive green

http://www.thebushcraftstore.co.uk/sas-kit-carry-sniper-smock---olive-green-399-p.asp

Also these guys do some good kit smocks too

http://www.sasskit.co.uk/product.php?id=53

Mike

[clapton33uk]

Great link Mike l would love that smaock but l really think the wife would shout this time .lol

Paul

[jus_young]

I like the look of that smock. With all those pockets you would never need a Rucksack!

I have also had a leaflet through the post from GoOutdoors and they have a sale with Paramo and Rab stuff included. Don't know if the price is comparable with other retailers but might be worth a look.

[jus_young]

Been on a night hike with the scouts this evening across the windswept clifftops, discovered that my waterproof jacket no longer is! Fair enough the weather was miserable and would have been a good test for the best of them but now this thread has become even more interesting!

Started taking a look into this ventile type stuff. Not knowing much about it, just how good is it?

[Silverback]

Been on a night hike with the scouts this evening across the windswept clifftops, discovered that my waterproof jacket no longer is! Fair enough the weather was miserable and would have been a good test for the best of them but now this thread has become even more interesting!

Started taking a look into this ventile type stuff. Not knowing much about it, just how good is it?

Depends if its 2 layer or single layer. The basic premise is the fibres are woven tightly together so they are wind proof. Then when it gets wet those self same fibres swell and cannot take on anymore water or thats how I understand it to work. I use mine with coolmax base layer, wool shirt and fleece and it works.

heres a link

http://www.ventile.co.uk/

Incidentally I've been up at 500m in driving rain today too - and stayed toasty and dry in my Paramo

[Reaps72]

Hey there sir

I will whole heartedly recommend the Rab Latok Alpine @ £150-£190. Expensive yes but I am blown away by its performance & I used to be buy a bargain man & my last jacket was a craghopper tri-climate type, which was also bomb proof, if a little elderly gent according to my missus! eVent fabric works brilliantly in the wet & wild, the breathability is magnificent & I can be a sweaty fella!


Been on a night hike with the scouts this evening across the windswept clifftops, discovered that my waterproof jacket no longer is! Fair enough the weather was miserable and would have been a good test for the best of them but now this thread has become even more interesting!

Started taking a look into this ventile type stuff. Not knowing much about it, just how good is it?

As said go Rab all the way! I am shocked at the cost of some of the ventile kit!

[jus_young]

Know what you mean about the cost! I think I will have to look at the Rab/Paramo options. Thanks folks.

[Martin]

My Paramo smock turned up on Tuesday. It is great. I only managed to wear in for a very short walk in St Ives on Tuesday night and at ATC on Wednesday but it is comfortable and so far has proved to be waterproof in the shower I encountered.

Very happy. :)

Martin

[Silverback]

Just to throw additional fuel on the fire. I was out in hail, sleet, driving rain and a thunderstorm at 360m ASL last night in my Keela Munro - once again toasty warm and dry. The problems started when i got moving, not as breathable as Paramo so got sweaty quickly which cooled me.

I was wearing Paramo trousers and my legs were fine - until i forgot to zip up my pocket which became exposed to the weather and i ended up with a wet leg. That soon dried out through exercise

Moral of the story ? What works for you is what's best for you.

[rossbird]

Paramo fan here, must have around 6 items....although a couple seem to have, er, shrunk the last few years:ashamed:
Rossendale is known for it's 'damp' climate, Paramo, with their reproofing system, works for me.

[Martin]

Well, the weather forecast for Dartmoor tomorrow and Sunday should test my Paramo Velez smock pretty well. It going to be very wet and fairly warm; the ultimate nightmare for waterproof, breathable kit.

I'll report back on Sunday evening when we get home.

Martin

[Silverback]

Paramo iss the best 'all round' fabric i have come across - well for me anyway. It is rather let down in the summer though

[rossbird]

Paramo iss the best 'all round' fabric i have come across - well for me anyway. It is rather let down in the summer though

Agree Sapper. not for summer use, but then there is so much else to wear at that time.

[rossbird]

Well, the weather forecast for Dartmoor tomorrow and Sunday should test my Paramo Velez smock pretty well. It going to be very wet and fairly warm; the ultimate nightmare for waterproof, breathable kit.

I'll report back on Sunday evening when we get home.

Martin

Look forward to the assessment Martin.
Hope you enjoy the weekend.

[Silverback]

Agree Sapper. not for summer use, but then there is so much else to wear at that time.

to be honest i usually wear a Paramo Fuera windproof, if the weather gets so bad that waterproofing is needed i stay in. If I HAVE to go out then I have a goretex but even that leaks and is uncomfortable in warm weather

[Martin]

Paramo really does work. Not ifs no buts it just works. Buy it!!

Martin

[Metal mug]

Paramo really does work. Not ifs no buts it just works. Buy it!!

Martin Hey why's Martin got a big sack of money with 'care of Paramo corp' written on the side? ;)

[Martin]

Hey why's Martin got a big sack of money with 'care of Paramo corp' written on the side? ;)

Shhhh!! Don't tell everybody.

In all seriousness, I never believed the hype about the material but when we stopped on our first break yesterday after a couple of hours of rain and temperatures in the high teens I expected to be very sweaty. No such problems I'm glad to say. Sadly, my daughter's waterproofs weren't quite so efficient at keeping the water out so, on the way back she wore my Velez smock and I wore my Fuera windproof smock with microfleece underneath. I sweated up quite a bit in the fleec and never really dried out all the rest of the afternoon.

I now think that you are either you're a Paramo convert or you aren't or you haven't tried the garments out.

Martin

[Roadkillphil]

I have a Keela Sonic, and it is The Bomb! I't has a great cut, fits superb and keeps the weather out oh yeah.... Only problem is the zip... after a year of use the very bottom tooth has come loose and if I dont do it up carefully then it opens from the bottom up!! A pain in the arse, but other than this it is a great jacket for the price.

Hope you find what youm lookin for

All the best

Phil