Dave Budd Forging a Knife Using Primitive Methods

[Ashley Cawley]

Dave Budd shows us how to forge a knife using primitive methods. Checkout http://www.davebudd.com/ for the making of knives or hand tools for other craftspeople and the teaching of various courses in Primitive Technology.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdYAiKDKv1Q

[dave budd]

Wow! that bloke's a genius! :jumping-joy:

:innocent:

Nice video Ash, thanks for putting it up mate

[Sonofhood]

I bet he has tennis elbow.

[Ashley Cawley]

Is was brilliant watching you work Dave, hope to watch it again in the future :)

[Ashley Cawley]

Also got Justin here trying his hand a bit of Blacksmithing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7n12z_INlsc
But I think he'll admit he's certainly no expert at it yet!

[CrazyBR]

Congratulations great post:)

[dave budd]

no tennis elbow here. I try to work smart and not too hard ;) Worst I get is sore knees from sitting down all day when demonstrating, but that's easy to get around

I think Justin was very proud of his first blade. Quite right too!

[OKBushcraft]

Nice vid, thanks for the thread.

[Ashley Cawley]

Dave, just to let you know below your video on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdYAiKDKv1Q
there are plenty of people asking questions about your setup & materials etc. if you fancy it you might wana respond let them know a few tit-bits & then point them to your site :)

[dave budd]

cheers mate, I've not actually watched it on youtube, so I forgot about the comments!

[Bambii]

That looks like a really nice blade!

[WoodTroll]

Great vid. Someone once told me that early blacksmiths used animal droppings when forging steel to put carbon into it. I don't know who true this is?

[CanadianMike]

Great vid. Someone once told me that early blacksmiths used animal droppings when forging steel to put carbon into it. I don't know who true this is?

I actually read similar, that early blacksmiths would QUENCH in animal dung, namely horse droppings (I know, they are road apples, make more sense to use cow 'plop'.)

[dave budd]

the use of droppings to make steel is certainly possible, but you wouldn't quench in it (no practical reason for it).

Part of my MA thesis was looking at pre-industrial methods of steel making and blacksmithing, primarily the fuel used and whether you could tell what it was by the chemistry of the steel. Dropping of herbivorous animals (I used Dartmoor pony coz it wouldn't be contaminated by modern feed supplements) put a lot of carbon in very quickly and at a lower than usual temperature, so much so that in 4 hours at 900C I had cast iron formed on the surface of my steel block (so from 0% carbon to around 5%!). It's done in a controlled carborising process, where you wrap the steel-to-be in an airtight clay envelope stuffed with the poop.

You can forge in some dungs such as cow, sheep, lama (I've a friend in the US who uses 'buffalo chips' a lot), but horse is too friable and doesn't get hot enough. You won't get much carbon sucked in just through forging due to the loss of metal through scaling, hence the need for separate carborising procedures (the edge of the forge can be used to get carbon from the forging fire/fuel directly into metal, but you need to keep the metal at the right temp, in a reducing/neutral environment for hours at a time, so isn't practical.)

I was talking to a mate about this research and my results while we were discussing ways to make crucible steel (such as shear steel, blister steel or wootz). Next thing I know the bugger is doing a demo on the BBC and telling them that you can use poo to make steel! :rolleyes:

[CanadianMike]

Interesting info Dave, thanks for that. :)

[Ashley Cawley]

...You can forge in some dungs such as cow, sheep, lama (I've a friend in the US who uses 'buffalo chips' a lot),...
I always knew Dave knew his sh*t... :rolleye: sorry had to make at least one bad joke to get it out my system :p

Seriously though, some interesting stuff there, thanks Dave. You've looked into the chemistry & whether it's technically do'able, have you seen much historical reference to it being used as fuel for the forge?

[OKBushcraft]

That was some interesting info on using droppings. Thanks.

[dave budd]

I always knew Dave knew his sh*t... :rolleye: sorry had to make at least one bad joke to get it out my system :p

Seriously though, some interesting stuff there, thanks Dave. You've looked into the chemistry & whether it's technically do'able, have you seen much historical reference to it being used as fuel for the forge?

Unfortunately I couldn't find any evidence for dung being used archaeologically for forging with, but the residues left would either resemble charcoal or more likely burnt grass if anything survived at all (which doesn't happen often due to the fact that organic material survives in the sort of places that you don't forge and vice versa). Animal dung has been seen archaeologically and ethnographically as a fuel in ceramic production (firing pottery kilns), so the temperature potential of poo was well known. As for the chemical traceability of the steel made using poo, well I'm afraid that was beyond the scope of what I could achieve at the time (it would be a Phd project and I ran out of money/steam). Certainly the fuel supply used in the smelting of Iron from the ore has been researched successfully, so the same should be true for the steel making and potentially forging of the steel/iron; given the time, money and inclination to do the research!

Who knows, if it still hasn't been looked into by the time I get worn out doing what I'm currently doing,i may go back and do that Phd :rolleyes: