Survival situation

[treefrog]

In a previous thread, Martin brought up a good point about survival vs bushcraft and it was a perspective I had not considered.
My personal interest in bushcraft is limited to learning interesting new things all geared toward increasing my enjoyment of the
wilderness; I never put a thought toward being in a survival situation because honestly, I've never been lost far from civilization,
never known anyone who has been, and I figure the chances of it are so slim I'll sort it out when it happens. Sure, I carry
mathches on me in case I fall through the ice or flip the canoe in cold weather, but that's about it. I'm just curious to know how
much thought and effort others put toward the survival side of this hobby.

Jack

[tadpole]

I guess it depends on what you call survival. I’ve been in the position where my car has broken down on the motorway, and its’ been raining.
Now do I stand spoaking wet in the rain for hours with my family safely behind the barrier away from the risk of a dosing lorry driver? Do I sit in the car warm and dry and have the real risk of my car and my family being destroyed by some overtired lorry driver. Nope, I keep in my car stuff that will mean I can brew up a hot choc or coffee, with a tarp to keep us all dry. Something I’d not have even thought about until I learnt about preparing and craft, mind you the only part of my BOB that is ‘craft is the spoons, pop can stove.
You don’t have to be in the desert, the icy wastes or Guilford to need survival skills

[chris grace]

:)I put a lot of thought into it.

Picture this:-

I'm in the woods ,alone with some kit with me and I need a fire.I also need shelter and water along with food.

Now ,am I in a survival situation ,or am I out bushcrafting?Which skill that I would use to obtain any of the above essentials can be classed as survival and not bushcraft and vice versa?
Regardless of the reason you do it ,lighting a fire is lighting a fire.
Personally I feel there is no difference between survival skills and bushcraft skills.The only difference between the situations is you choose to do one and the other is forced upon you,and maybe a sense of urgency with survival situations.

Put another way:
I go into the wilds to use mysuvival skills and when I'm in the woods I use my bushcraft skills to get home safely:D (did you see what I did there?)


Another question.
If I go to the woods and find I have mistakenly taken my survival knife ,do I have to go home.
If I find myself in a survival situation with my bushcraft knife ,am I allowed to use it.;)

[Silverback]

what exactly is a survival skill ?

In my experience simply the posession of a map & compass and the ability to use them are essential survival aids. The difference between getting out of the mire in which you have found yourself or spending a very uncomfortable if not life threatening night on a mountain/moor.

The difference between being able to tell mountain rescue where you are and having umpteen MRT's plus dogs and helicopters out looking for you.

At the other end of the spectrum you are in town in a bar and things start to get a bit hairy - knowing when to thin out in that situation is another type of survival skill, being able to apply basic first aid, being able to swim (effectively) all potential skills which may aid your survival and that of others.


Great thread - sure we will get some excellent input into this one :D

[Terry]

Back in the early 80s we did a lot of survival weekends, I never heard of bushcraft back then. Mainly it was carring less and lighter loads, maps and compass. Dont ever think it wont happen to you... I nearly had a close call back then and now i carry emergency food, and kit to survive a couple of days in my car.

[Metal mug]

I suppose in short, you could hate the outdoors but still know survival skills. Where as in bushcraft you love the outdoors and you learn the skills to spend more time outside. :)

[bigstan]

As above i carry in my car always, brew kit and fire lighter kit, powdered chocolate and soups, mars bars (i am diabetic),folding saw, folding spade, Mora knife as well as the folder i always have in my pocket, wool blanket, and an 8x6 foot tarp. In winter i carry waterproof clothes and wellies, if i am going more than 20 miles from home i will pack spare clothes for each person. All this stuff takes up very little room. To date i have never needed any of it, and never decided to go out without it. Stan.

[CanadianMike]

This happeneed here in Ontario last year, hundreds of motorists stuck on the side of the road during snow storms, some over 24hrs........

http://www.canada.com/Snow+strands+hundreds+drivers+Ontario/3976922/story.html

Part of the reason I bought my 4x4, but big reason why I have the back loaded up with all kinds of things, tarps, wool blanket, -10C sleeping bag and bivy sack, bag of military rations, means to cook, survival candles, multiple flashlights, two shovels (one for snow, one German shovel with pick for ice), etc. Saw a while back a neat means of safely heating a car, take one or two empty soup cans, load up with a roll of toilet paper each, and keep a bunch of bottles of rubbing alcohol in the car with you. Pour the alcohol into the toilet paper til it absorbs it without making it too soggy, and light with a match. Run it for a period of time to warm the interior some, then put it out and light it again later as needed.

[Martin]

I'm not too sure about the burning alcohol idea Mike. Surely, burning any organic compoud (ethnaol, methanol etc) would produce carbon monoxide in the car?

Please check this out before you need to do it for real. ;)

Martin

[CanadianMike]

Was my thought too, but is why you don't run it for a long time, and also open a window a bit. Just did a search, came across this:

http://www.tacticalintelligence.net/blog/survival-car-heater-carbon-monoxide-testing-results.htm

Here's one made of a small paint can, a better idea as you can store other items in there as you need, plus you can smother the flame when required.

[Martin]

I'm not too sure about the burning alcohol idea Mike. Surely, burning any organic compoud (ethnaol, methanol etc) would produce carbon monoxide in the car?

Please check this out before you need to do it for real. ;)

Martin

I just checked this out myself. Ethanol burns to produce carbon dioxide, water, and heat so not too dangerous but high levels of CO2 in an enclosed space still can't be healthy can it?

Martin

[CanadianMike]

Nope, but that's where leaky doors comes in handy. Lol, that's where the roll down a window a bit comes into play. Am sure if you burn it at the same time as running the engine and circulate the airflow inside the car, might work well as you'd be distributing the hot air around more efficiently, in which case you could save gas and alcohol, as well as reduce emmissions into the car. Besides, people will build up CO2 in there as it is....... which is why we keep those pine tree fresheners in our cars, it works year round and changes CO2 to oxygen via photosynthesis. ;)

Rubbing alcohol is watered down isopropyl alcohol over here (and see your 'surgical spirits' is ethanol), is pretty safe stuff to burn.

[Metal mug]

I just checked this out myself. Ethanol burns to produce carbon dioxide, water, and heat so not too dangerous but high levels of CO2 in an enclosed space still can't be healthy can it?

MartinI thought in Canada they all drove these open top cars? ;) 3415

[treefrog]

[QUOTE=CanadianMike;34389]This happeneed here in Ontario last year, hundreds of motorists stuck on the side of the road during snow storms, some over 24hrs........

http://www.canada.com/Snow+strands+hundreds+drivers+Ontario/3976922/story.html

Yeah, I sort of remember that; I don't think it was real life or death situations for anyone...the cops were zooming up and down on snowmobiles
checking on everyone.

As for the flaming toilet paper... note to self: when camping with Molotov Mike always have fire extinguisher handy!:campfire:

[treefrog]

So, my apologies, I guess this was something of an unclear question; most bushcraft skills can be called survival skills, can't they?
I was more thinking about how much time one puts toward wilderness outings, handcrafting items, animal-watching etc. vs practicing friction fire & shelter building & Les Stroud type skills....

[CanadianMike]

Or load up on a full bladder of beer! Lol

No, not a lot of risk of life in that situation that happened, but it's the mindset of travellers that is of concern, how many had even an extra blanket in their trunk when that occured? How many only had a business suit on and paid no attention to the fact they may end up as part of a snowbank during their 30-60min commute from one town to the next during a snowstorm and actually considered something less attractive to cover their business wear..... literally the reason I brought it up, preparedness.

As far as your second post, I feel that practicing bushcrafty type things and trying to travel light with enough SHTF stuff in your pockets is borderline bushcraft/survival, expect the expected, and try to prep for what is unexpected. And as far as learning the skills goes, bushcraft sets the bar higher for learning to use things properly. Case in point, a buddy of mine is stocking up on SHTF stuff, ok, basically firearms, pistols, shotguns, semi-auto assault rifles, thousands of rounds of ammo, etc. but wants me to mod the sheath of his new Ontario bayonet to hold a fire striker, as a just in case thing. He wants it on there in case he needs to start a fire with it, yet he won't go camping with our friend Stephen and I, both of whom regularly use a fire striker and rod and know about tinder prep, etc. He wants the security, but isn't interested much in learning to use it. Case in point, the modern mindset of "I have winter tires on my car, so I don't need to think about adding stuff to my trunk past the spare tire."

[Basha72]

we used to make portable fires out of tobacco tins same size as the survival tin, we used corrugated cardboard cut to depth of tin then packed in with the holes upwards then fill the holes with candle wax until all full, it was enough to cook up a bit of food so would keep you warm for a while also. I've always known them called Canadian fires ? maybe derived from ww1 trench cooking ??

they are good small easy to maintain just top back up with wax again and don't cost and arm and a leg !


Basha

[treefrog]

Hey Mike, sounds like your friend should start a new forum called 'Redneck Bushcraft'. And sadly it would be the most popular one out there...

[CanadianMike]

Dumb thing is, he'd rather rely on asking Stephen and I a pile of questions about what to eat in the woods, what type of pine needle is good for making tea, etc. rather than tear himself away from Kenny Vs. Spenney videos and read up on books or watch informative videos by Ray Mears or Dave Cantebury (I actually started a new Facebook page exactly to share useful info for his benefit, a half dozen friends joined it including Stephen, yet he hasn't, go figure). Known the guy for 7 years, formed our large airsoft team with him, very intelligent guy, brilliant strategist and historian, but for survival/camping/simple roughing it a bit, he stays away from, and wants info rather than experience. Rather comical actually. Am going with many discussions we had, the three of us, together over lunch on Christmas Eve.... Stephen and I are both of the same mind "Get your ass out camping with us and learn some stuff, rather than thinking you can survive a night in the brush just because you have a big nasty looking knife and a means to start fire".

[treefrog]

I hear ya, Mike. I know guys who think roughing it means not bringing the generator.

[CanadianMike]

My dad is like that, camping to him and his girlfriend means bringing their RV.....

[GwersyllaCnau]

I guess it depends on what you call survival. I’ve been in the position where my car has broken down on the motorway, and its’ been raining.
Now do I stand spoaking wet in the rain for hours with my family safely behind the barrier away from the risk of a dosing lorry driver? Do I sit in the car warm and dry and have the real risk of my car and my family being destroyed by some overtired lorry driver. Nope, I keep in my car stuff that will mean I can brew up a hot choc or coffee, with a tarp to keep us all dry. Something I’d not have even thought about until I learnt about preparing and craft, mind you the only part of my BOB that is ‘craft is the spoons, pop can stove.
You don’t have to be in the desert, the icy wastes or Guilford to need survival skills

My friend lost her parents and 2 brothers like this, so if my car ever broke down even on a normal road I would never stay in it.

[comanighttrain]

Well now I have a little shelter bag for hill walking and a blizzard bag, you could have a crap night, you might even sleep. You could endure some pretty harsh weather in it. In my opinion that is survival - it may suck but you will make it. Bushcraft is generally enjoyable (you know, building stuff, fires, cooking, etc) and transfers well into the "oh no" situations.