£900.00 for a knife!

[Thumbcrusher]

So, are these knives REALLY worth £600, £700 and £900?

http://www.tamarackgroup.co.uk/acatalog/Alan-Wood-Hand-Made-Knives.html

For that kind of money i'd want Ray Mears to pop round and sharpen it for me on a daily basis but what do you think?:confused2:

I'm not saying they aren't nice because they are but i just don't think anyone can justify that amount of cash for a knife!:zombie-fighting:

[CanadianMike]

Likely it's because of collector value, some of the first knives Alan Wood hand made (I'd assume), as most Woodlore knives are made elsewhere.

[Saxon]

As Mike said..this is what you are paying money for...."close up of logo"..."Stamped with makers name and Woodlore Logo" etc: The knife as an object isn't worth anywhere near £600-£900..
But all the time people will pay...Ah! well then...:D :D

[Tony1948]

As a bit of a knife maker my self................NO WAY............:Sorry:

[paulthefish2009]

Just looked, a new woodlore from uncle ray is now £485. !! It's not like they are one off's either. As much as i like and admire ray he must be laughing all the way to the bank. Maybe i'm missing something?

[Richie]

Just looked, a new woodlore from uncle ray is now £485. !! It's not like they are one off's either. As much as i like and admire ray he must be laughing all the way to the bank. Maybe i'm missing something?

But is uncle Ray selling any?
It wouldn't surprise me if he was, there's enough kit monkeys out there throwing good money after bad.

[HillBill]

10 year waiting list. :)

For what it is and the materials used in the construction, no they are not worth it. You are paying for a name nothing more.


But is uncle Ray selling any?
It wouldn't surprise me if he was, there's enough kit monkeys out there throwing good money after bad.

[JEEP]

I would sure like to own them, but I would never pay that much for a modern knife. I would, however, pay even more, if offered the right antique/vintage sami leuku.

[luresalive]

Custom knives in the UK have become vastly inflated in price over the past few years,it's one of the reasons I've bowed out of the whole knife thing..You want to see the professional handmade knives you can get for $200 in the states,(as a matter of fact Dave Canterbury is getting custom knives hand made and selling them for $100!!!) yet over here you can pay the equivalent of that for a knife from a hobby maker!!! No way!!, knives are meant to cut and a £10 mora does that just as well as a £400 custom

[andrewlee]

10 year waiting list. :)

For what it is and the materials used in the construction, no they are not worth it. You are paying for a name nothing more.

Totally agree. Got a Ka Bar D2 for 75 quid. Not a pretty wood handle, just a black blade but it works.

[Metal mug]

I wonder if what Alan Woods forks cost? :)

[paulthefish2009]

Jakob,I agree for the right knife ie; historical value or age/rarety etc then yeh why not if you got the money. I do think that £900. for something modern is vergying on profitering? There are makers on here who in my humble and very amatuer opinion turn out at the very least equal blades. If i was in the market for a hand made,individual bushcraft knife i know that the liks of dave,mike,tony et,al could give me exactly what i want along with a whole load of change! Like i said in my earlier post i admire ray, he is undoubtly a very talented and skillfull man,but his prices are a tad fierce.

[CanadianMike]

I see the knife prices over there and think "WTF!?!", more so when I quickly realize your pound is about double our dollar, and think "Geez, mine are a steal!"

[paulthefish2009]

Mike, sorry to put you on the spot but what would you want for a woodlore copy? You are correct when you say WTF,its a bit mad and i really don't understand how these guys can justify the prices they ask. Paul

[HillBill]

They're not too bad. I had the stacked leather handle one. I found they made some of the work harder though. They don't do bad as a camp knife. Carving tasks and things like that, they struggle with. :)


Totally agree. Got a Ka Bar D2 for 75 quid. Not a pretty wood handle, just a black blade but it works.

[AdrianRose]

I've seen this conversation So many times now. Is it/isn't it worth £500-£900 ?

Simple answer is that it's worth what somebody is willing to pay for it. Personally I think it's bonkers. The knife itself is standard O1 tool steel with a "basic" wooden handle. I've built knives like this for less that £100 out of the same O1 tool steel but put far superior handle stock on.

What you are paying for is the name and the kudos of owning a "designer" knife. The shame of it is that there are countless people out there who would sell their soul to get these knives. I have a friend who spent 2 hrs watching, pausing, rewinding and pausing again a Ray Mears DVD just so he could see which two initials where on his GB small forest axe so that he could get the same maker!

Besides all this the Scandi grind isn't particularly well suited to bushcraft in my opinion.

Ade

[Tony1948]

I'v made one, cheep I only want £480 for it,lol:happy-clapping:3778

[Tony1948]

3779I'v made one, cheep I only want £480 for it,lol:happy-clapping:3778Not for sale,but you can see wot you can do with a bit of work and it didant cost anny thing like the £480 odd that Ray wonts for one,you wont one make it;)

[rossbird]

Besides all this the Scandi grind isn't particularly well suited to bushcraft in my opinion.

Ade

Just put me crash helmet on Ade:)

[AdrianRose]

Just put me crash helmet on Ade:)

?????

[paulthefish2009]

hmmm! nice tony,i like!!

[rossbird]

?????

Just thought you may have taken some flack for your comment on scandi grind Ade.
From what I read, it is the most popular grind for Bushcraft knives.
I can see the problems when doing heavy work.
What would be your preferred grind?

[treefrog]

Gosh, for that kind of money you could own the entire Mora line, plus a 12-pack of disposable 511's....

[CanadianMike]

Mike, sorry to put you on the spot but what would you want for a woodlore copy? You are correct when you say WTF,its a bit mad and i really don't understand how these guys can justify the prices they ask. Paul
Heck, I've only been asking $150 for these, 1/8" thick O-1 (same as Woodlore except better cutting/slicing bevel)........

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/260269_120667241351147_117036668380871_176124_5368 878_n.jpg

Invisible blade is extra!

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/248565_120932571324614_117036668380871_177691_2190 176_n.jpg

After materials and expendables, such as sandpaper and sanding belts, I make maybe $5 per hour labour. Hardly making any profit, I should boost my prices, but then, I'd never sell any! Lol

Gosh, for that kind of money you could own the entire Mora line, plus a 12-pack of disposable 511's....

Dude, you forgot the beer/whiskey you can buy in there too. :)

[jbrown14]

So, I saw everyone was talking about knives, and when Tony and Mike get involved, there are usually some pictures of pretty knives included.

Hey, what's this link? The knives are HOW MUCH?

3780

[treefrog]

Love that invisible blade pic. Those are some beauty knives there.

[treefrog]

3779I'v made one, cheep I only want £480 for it,lol:happy-clapping:3778Not for sale,but you can see wot you can do with a bit of work and it didant cost anny thing like the £480 odd that Ray wonts for one,you wont one make it;)

Tony, that is a work of art.

[Martin]

I'v made one, cheep I only want £480 for it,lol:happy-clapping:3778

You make a knife go 'Cheep'. Now that would be worth £900!!! ;)

Martin

[tadpole]

Hobbyist knife makers can afford to make a couple of quid an hour profit, just the same as anyone who earns a living doing one thing but makes a bit of a job on the side doing a craft. But if you have to make a living from selling something, that’s when the true price of doing something really shows.

The cost in time effort and materials is one thing, but so is the cost of packing, advertising, marketing, improving, filling out your paper work, heating your office, running a website, paying for the 101 things that have to be done, to get a great product into the view of the general public’s view.

If like Dave Budd you make everything yourself and don’t ship your metal off to be pre-cut ,pre-ground, pre-tempered- pre heat treated, pre assembled, pre stamped with your makers mark, and sent to a different company to ship direct to your customer. Every minute you’re not making stuff you’re not earning stuff.
Take for example a computer specialist who say earns £34,000 a year (£16.50 per hour) (we’ll forget about the company car and benefits for a second.
Not a bad wage.
For the knife makers charging $150 (£95) per knife and sheath, take off the cost of materials (£20) and tools (say an investment of £5000 spread out of 5 years) £1000 a year or £4 per hour. Same for the cost of renting a work shop £4 per hour, and the cost of disposables like grinding wheels and sand paper, gas for the heat treatment, heating and lighting call that £3 per hour

Now assuming it take say three hours to make a knife and sheath ( I know it can and does take longer, but that would only make my figures worse.)
From your £95 you take off £57 for direct costs
Then take off all the other bills like running a website, paying for printing, paying for your packing materials and all the other hidden indirect costs. Let’s call it £10 per knife, and I think I’m being very conservative on this figure.

So from your sale price of £95 you’re making a pre-tax figure of £28 (or £9.33 p per hour) take off your tax NI and the like (£1.84 x 3) £5.52 giving you £22.48 (£7.50p per hour)
Ok so that’s looking good, and is above minimum wage (for the UK)
But that’s assuming you can make 14 knives a week 50 weeks a year. Say you have a bad few months and your average is only 10 knives. What then?
Ok so that’s not so bad as you will pay a lot less tax, but that is because you are only earning £5 after tax, but that is still assuming that you can both make and sell 500 knives a year, and that your customers pay you on time and you pay your suppliers after you’ve made and sold the knife, and that nothing breaks down, and nothing goes wrong.

You can still live on a fiver an hour. But if you have the skill to make knives or anything for that matter, would you want to? I know there are people on this and other forums, who make less than that, but love the jobs they do and love the life they lead, they make many sacrifices and have many hard ships, including selling off anything that they have of value to pay for repairs on their vehicles so they can get to places to make what little money they make.

If you were trying to make a living what would you do, make 50 knives a year and charge £600 or 600 knives a year and charge £50

[jus_young]

Wow. But so true.

[tadpole]

Wow. But so true.

Sorry it was so long,:ashamed: but I’m constantly amazed that people are so unwilling to pay the going rate for something of real use. Without thinking of what it cost a craftsman to actually make.
A wooden bowl that is hand made by a skilled artisan may go for £40, and people go “£40 for a bowl, I can get 6 from IKEA for that kind of Money.” So go to Ikea.
For a craftsman t make that bowl, he chose the wood, stored it, seasoned it and waited until the time was right and then chose the style, the form, the function, worked hard and through skill time and devotion to his/her art bought all the material and tools together in such a way to make an object with beauty and form, as well a function, and longevity. And made it work.
For him to do that and allow me to buy it, that is really amazing: it truly gives meaning and value above the actual cost of the material.
Go to any art shop and for around £20 £30 you can get a couple of canvases and some brushes, a dozen or so colours. But would it be a Monet or a Van Gogh? Would anyone pay 24 million for it?
People pay a couple of hundred for a flat ground bar shaped into a knife, with a tenners worth of wood glued on, but moan at £50 for a handmade axe? Now really does boggle the mind.

[HillBill]

What Tad says is pretty much spot on. As a knifemaker myself i've learnt the hard way about the costs and time/effort involed in both making and selling a product. My knives sell for an average price of around £120 but i'm honestly struggling to make ends meet at that price. I've just invested a few grand in new tools as i'm going pro in the next couple of months and will have to raise prices then to cover the insurance, business council tax, website upkeep, etc. If i didn't i'd be working for nothing.

[Raven]

Personally i think everything is relative, as was said earlier its supply and demand, weather it be for popularity or workmenship, the price reflects the demand, thats not to say that one is better than the other although you normally pay for quallity, its not always the case, i would say when looking at any perchase do your homework and don't get taken in by the hype!

[jbrown14]

"Paying the going rate for something of real use" is not at issue for me here. As a guy who makes less than 60 thousand USD per year, £900 for a knife is extremely expensive. I won't comment whether or not it's actually worth the money based on the time and resources of the craftsman that went into it, but regardless, it is a great sum of money.

I will say; even if I had the wherewithal, I could not see myself ever shelling out that much for a knife. I know that might stick under the skin of the craftsmen here, and I don't mean to offend; but personally, I'd be more inclined to spend that money on materials and equipment that would allow me to produce a knife for myself. Not as high quality as Mister Wood's knives, I know, but made by me, for me, with my tools. More bang for the buck as we say.

All the best,

Josh

[AdrianRose]

I completely agree with the "skilled artisan" argument, but bringing us back to the original question - can one justify £900 for a knife that is still essentially an O1 stock removal method knife with a basic wood handle?

If it was hand forged (al a our very own Dave Budd) then yes, I agree, loads of skill. But it's not a craftsman forged knife, its flat ground O1 stock with no discernible flair or originality.

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not slagging off either Alan Wood or Stephen Wade Cox (who makes the "other" Woodlore) but this is not a craftsmans made knife.

The price of these knives is merely a reflection on the demand and the association of Ray Mears and has nothing at all to do with quality of the finished article.

Ade.

[CanadianMike]

What Tad says is pretty much spot on. As a knifemaker myself i've learnt the hard way about the costs and time/effort involed in both making and selling a product. My knives sell for an average price of around £120 but i'm honestly struggling to make ends meet at that price. I've just invested a few grand in new tools as i'm going pro in the next couple of months and will have to raise prices then to cover the insurance, business council tax, website upkeep, etc. If i didn't i'd be working for nothing.

I pretty much just look to replace what I've spent on extra tools, more materials, etc. I don't really focus at all on an hourly rate, is more just something that I use on people that think I should be charging a lot less than I actually do, because, in their mind, I have to buy what, wood, a peice of metal and some leather, and past that some think I must be making massive profit, so I just point out how little I get in return for the dozen or more hours I spend on knife making. Luckily, those that think I charge too much are few and far between.

[Thumbcrusher]

:happy-clapping: Good debate from all there! As others have said i'm not knocking the people who make these knives at all nor their product but i still couldn't bring myself to pay that for a knife even if i had the cash. (Mind you that policy is probably brought about by the fact that my missus would stab me with said knife if she found out i'd just spent £900 on it!:zombie-fighting:)

[luresalive]

I once spent a weekend with one of the Top and most well known knifemakers in the country,he told me and indeed has shown how fast he can make a bushy blade from a bar of 01, you would not believe just how fast he can do it!!!

[JEEP]

Ultimately it does not matter how long it takes to make a knife, nor does it matter what the materials, or even the tools, cost. What matters is; how much is the maker willing to sell his products for - and how much is the buyer willing to pay.

If you regard a knife simply as a tool, whith no sentimental value, then no; you would probably not be paying £900 for a knife that essentially does the same as a £9 knife.

But, for collectors, like myself, paying £900 for the right knife is not a forigen thought at all. Maybe one cannot afford it, but the desire can still be there. For a collector a knife is a lot more than a tool, it is a story (or even a piece of history), a work of art and, in the case of the Woodlore, a small link to a larger than life personality; Ray Mears. I ordered my Skokum Bushtool for these very reasons, it is not a £900 knife, but it is up there - I have also paid big money for antique knives for these very reasons.
It is very easy to ridicule someone for being "stupid enough" to pay that amount of money for a tool - but by doing so, one admits to the disability of not being able to see the whole picture.
Nobody pays £900 for a knife - they pay £900 for the knife. For some the knife is a £9 knife, for some one that costs £120 - for me; the knife will probably cost me around £1500-2000, If I am ever able to find one...

[luresalive]

Ultimately it does not matter how long it takes to make a knife, nor does it matter what the materials, or even the tools, cost. What matters is; how much is the maker willing to sell his products for - and how much is the buyer willing to pay.

If you regard a knife simply as a tool, whith no sentimental value, then no; you would probably not be paying £900 for a knife that essentially does the same as a £9 knife.

But, for collectors, like myself, paying £900 for the right knife is not a forigen thought at all. Maybe one cannot afford it, but the desire can still be there. For a collector a knife is a lot more than a tool, it is a story (or even a piece of history), a work of art and, in the case of the Woodlore, a small link to a larger than life personality; Ray Mears. I ordered my Skokum Bushtool for these very reasons, it is not a £900 knife, but it is up there - I have also paid big money for antique knives for these very reasons.
It is very easy to ridicule someone for being "stupid enough" to pay that amount of money for a tool - but by doing so, one admits to the disability of not being able to see the whole picture.
Nobody pays £900 for a knife - they pay £900 for the knife. For some the knife is a £9 knife, for some one that costs £120 - for me; the knife will probably cost me around £1500-2000, If I am ever able to find one...

I would never offer such a judgement on someone for buying something I didn't think was worth it, as you say that is up to them, but personally I feel that stock removal knives that are sold in the UK are too expensive.
As for THE knife,well we all seek that one and will probably never find it and the desire to own something historical or unique equates to a completely different beast! But a piece of 01 with 2 bits of wood stuck on it..well value is in the eye of the beholder!


...Sharp edge and steady hand, my friend! .. (ancient Irish greeting between those of related clans!)

[Opal]

I would never offer such a judgement on someone for buying something I didn't think was worth it, as you say that is up to them, but personally I feel that stock removal knives that are sold in the UK are too expensive.
As for THE knife,well we all seek that one and will probably never find it and the desire to own something historical or unique equates to a completely different beast! But a piece of 01 with 2 bits of wood stuck on it..well value is in the eye of the beholder!


...Sharp edge and steady hand, my friend! .. (ancient Irish greeting between those of related clans!)

Sharp eyes and sleight of hand!.. (ancient Scouse Dipper's proverb) T^

[luresalive]

Sharp eyes and sleight of hand!.. (ancient Scouse Dipper's proverb) T^

:happy-clapping:

[treefrog]

10 year waiting list. :)



I just noticed this. Is that for real? I can't think of ANYTHING that has a ten year waiting list, especially in this age of instant gratification.

[jbrown14]

I just noticed this. Is that for real? I can't think of ANYTHING that has a ten year waiting list, especially in this age of instant gratification.

I've seen this with American (US) custom knife-makers as well. When I say "I've seen this" I mean that I used to work with a couple of men who would obsess about the knives of a couple of makers and count down the months until their orders were going to be fulfilled. Some of the newer knives would have waiting lists years long.

Ten years is longer than I owned my first three vehicles combined. That's too long for me to wait. Heck, not to be morbid, but the man could die next week; any waiting list that long...sorry.

[HillBill]

I just noticed this. Is that for real? I can't think of ANYTHING that has a ten year waiting list, especially in this age of instant gratification.

Aye its true enough. The demand is far exceeding the supply. I think the Bear Grylls knife made by Rob bayley has a 7/8 year waiting list and they're selling for silly money too. More i think than the woodlore. Thats justified though as the bayley knife is made from better materials and the construction is much more complicated than a woodie. ( i know cos i'm making one atm;) )

Its one of the things that really annoys me about Ray mears, Hes a full time money grabber, who's only out for what he can get.

[lucky 67]

Aye its true enough. The demand is far exceeding the supply. I think the Bear Grylls knife made by Rob bayley has a 7/8 year waiting list and they're selling for silly money too. More i think than the woodlore. Thats justified though as the bayley knife is made from better materials and the construction is much more complicated than a woodie. ( i know cos i'm making one atm;) )

Its one of the things that really annoys me about Ray mears, Hes a full time money grabber, who's only out for what he can get.

i dont agree with this,ray mears has a business to run,i exped he is also paying a lot of taxes ,
you cannot compare this with any hobby knifemaker i think.

[CanadianMike]

I'd place Bear Grylls in the above, he is the main guy in ONE quirky show, then goes running with Gerber to create a line of semi-quality survival knives/gear with his name all over everything...................

Ray Mears has what, a dozen different shows (history, bushcraft, survival, etc.), purely educational, he actually teaches real techniques and has his hand in training the British military at times, has a custom knife (a high quality one, way beyond what Gerber could make) for sale plus supports a dozen or so products that are for sale on his website........ add in much of the blades sold on his website are hand forged (crooked knife blades for example)................ No way I can see Ray Mears as only in it for the money, he is too high quality for that.

One sold out for little but a name created from an extreme entertainment show, the other hasn't and gives way more back to viewers than he takes in.

I guess I'd liken it to if Les Stroud/Survivorman had Gerber come out with a line of survival knifes, I'd look less on him. But he hasn't, he worked with a high quality company (Helle) to make a knife with his name on it, that's it. He endorses tools he uses, knives, multitools, cameras, stands, etc. which is fine, he trusts them and says as much, same as Ray Mears. The Gerber BG line is mediocre at best, some items like the parang are purely dangerous due to the design if you whack anything larger than a 1" green tree..............

[lucky 67]

really true canadianmike but also les stroud has his name bonded to another
knife company recently ,with CAMILLUS actually .
its no shame these guys look into the future and try to make
more or less money with their names ,i know i would to do
the same if i was famous with what i do,dont you?

[jbrown14]

You just brought a tear to my eye, Luck 67. I live in Syracuse, New York (USA); less than 15 miles from Camillus, NY. I actually interviewed for a job at the Camillus factory when I was fresh out of college (didn't get it.) They closed the original plant down several years back, leaving an empty shell. Used to be I could just walk in the front door, drop a knife off for a free repair, and pick it up after a call back. Shame.

Good points, Mike.

[CanadianMike]

really true canadianmike but also les stroud has his name bonded to another
knife company recently ,with CAMILLUS actually .
its no shame these guys look into the future and try to make
more or less money with their names ,i know i would to do
the same if i was famous with what i do,dont you?

Nothing wrong with attaching oneself to a trusted knife company and coming up with a brand knife, it's the entire braod spectrum that is behind BG and Gerber that is troublesome, more so that the gear is crap really, or worse, leads to the mindset of "I watched all of BG's seasons, bought one of his knives and his survival kit, if anything ever happens to me, I'll be safe because I have the BG tools needed to survive."

Nutshell, Ray and Les don't go the cheap money making route to gear, BG has........ and that's dangerous, as well as cheapening his rep.

[Roadkillphil]

Sorry it was so long,:ashamed: but I’m constantly amazed that people are so unwilling to pay the going rate for something of real use. Without thinking of what it cost a craftsman to actually make.
A wooden bowl that is hand made by a skilled artisan may go for £40, and people go “£40 for a bowl, I can get 6 from IKEA for that kind of Money.” So go to Ikea.
For a craftsman t make that bowl, he chose the wood, stored it, seasoned it and waited until the time was right and then chose the style, the form, the function, worked hard and through skill time and devotion to his/her art bought all the material and tools together in such a way to make an object with beauty and form, as well a function, and longevity. And made it work.
For him to do that and allow me to buy it, that is really amazing: it truly gives meaning and value above the actual cost of the material.

Thankyou tadpole for that analogy. When I see an object, I see beyond its basic function or it's looks or even the materials used. The value of any item has to be calculated by factoring what has gone into its making.
For example, I look at Adams knives (sorry to pick on ye mate) I saw the woodbee he made for Steve and I saw more than just a nice lookin knife. I saw the care and attention applied to the project, the passion to get things just right for a mate, the choice and painstaking concerns about the integrity of the handle- re done many times to get it right. I saw that Adam hasn't been doing this long and it is done whilst learning and developing his own skills, this brings Adams life and his story into the personality of the blade. Id like to see the enjoyment of what he's doing, I'd much rather own a blade (or any object) that I know that the craftsmen was happy in his work and that he put more than just £ signs into its making.
Looking beyond the fact of it being a piece of metal and wood is a thing I cannot help but do. I feel that seeing these things adds value to anything I choose to purchase.

As to the value of the knives in this thread, I must agree with Jakob. If you have the cash and you feel it's worth it, then maybe it is.
To me, a Ferrari is as worthless as dogpoo under your fingernails, but to a millionaire car collector it's worth every penny.
So value, it appears, is all a matter of perspective.

Cheers
Phil

[AdrianRose]

Am I completely missing the point here? Is this a conversation about the "monetary" value of this knife or the "aesthetic" value of this knife.

The way I see it, rightly or wrongly, as a knife it simply isn't worth anywhere near £600-£900. As an aesthetic knife it's still not worth £600-£900, as it's a standard shape O1 blade.

But where the value lays is in the collectibility due to its association with Alan Wood/Ray Mears. That then becomes the choice of the purchaser. As I said before, anything is only intrinsically worth what one is willing to pay for it. Have a look at the paintings of Jackson Pollack and try to defend their price tag, you can't. But if somebody wants to pay ten of thousands of pounds for a few splashes of paint then that's their choice.

For me, i stand by my original comment that I don't think that the "Woodlore" is worth the money either just as a knife or as an aesthetic piece.

The Rob Bailey/Bear Grhylls/Gerber issue is somewhat separate and actually came down to Robs stand point and money.

Ade

[Tony1948]

Right on Phill I agree with that,I have only been makeing my knifes for about the last 18 mouths,it started with green Pets vids,I thought I can do that and started to get the tools together even makeing my own little forge.I have'ant sold any of mine I think to mutch of them,the work and time I'v put into them they mean to mutch to me.The satisfaction of makeing something that is a one off then getting the approval of you guys that now what they are looking at is nice,not that I make them for the praise,but it is a feel good thing.Leaving school at 14 without being aball to read or SPELL has never botherd me(like it do's MARTIN) I just enjoy makeing them for me.You get the same sense of feeling then a young jukel comes good and catche's it's first shushi or hair or you make that inpossable shot when out and about.End of rant:wink:

[HillBill]

The more he charges the more taxes he will pay, so its actually himself who is deciding his tax levels. Aye he has a business to run, which is precisely my point, hes a business man in it for the money. I don't begrudge him it, good on the bloke for being successful in what he does.

I'm a full time knife maker myself, i know the costs involved aswell as how long it takes to actually make a knife. So i know whats a stupid price for a product

Here are a couple of examples of my work of which the average price is £120
http://i446.photobucket.com/albums/qq186/markhill1608/P1010124.jpg
http://i446.photobucket.com/albums/qq186/markhill1608/P1010088.jpg
http://i446.photobucket.com/albums/qq186/markhill1608/P1000923.jpg
http://i446.photobucket.com/albums/qq186/markhill1608/P1000693.jpg
http://i446.photobucket.com/albums/qq186/markhill1608/P1000701.jpg




i dont agree with this,ray mears has a business to run,i exped he is also paying a lot of taxes ,
you cannot compare this with any hobby knifemaker i think.

[HillBill]

Ah but Mike, you are making the common mistake of thinking that bears show is all he does or has done. I like Bear a lot because of what he has done outside of the show.

All the charity work he does, all the world records he holds or has held, his position as lead scout etc, the guy does LOTS for others for no gain to himself. He is a motivational speaker aswell. He climbed everest ( setting a record as the youngest person to do it) after breaking his back in a parachuting accident. Its the things like that that make me respect him for WHO he is, not for what hes PAID to do on tv. :) They aint his choices that has him doing what he does. As for his knives.... selling out to gerber? Not at all, the original bayley knife was stupid expensive and the waiting list got silly too and due to his fan base being large and then his involvement with the scouts he had to get a product out that was available to everyone. The gerber knife in question is actually a VERY good knife for the money. I've held one and it is well built, strong and comfortable, but its not a bushcraft knife and never pretends to be. One was revieved on BCUK and it got a glowing report for its ability to do the job it was intended for.




I'd place Bear Grylls in the above, he is the main guy in ONE quirky show, then goes running with Gerber to create a line of semi-quality survival knives/gear with his name all over everything...................

Ray Mears has what, a dozen different shows (history, bushcraft, survival, etc.), purely educational, he actually teaches real techniques and has his hand in training the British military at times, has a custom knife (a high quality one, way beyond what Gerber could make) for sale plus supports a dozen or so products that are for sale on his website........ add in much of the blades sold on his website are hand forged (crooked knife blades for example)................ No way I can see Ray Mears as only in it for the money, he is too high quality for that.

One sold out for little but a name created from an extreme entertainment show, the other hasn't and gives way more back to viewers than he takes in.

I guess I'd liken it to if Les Stroud/Survivorman had Gerber come out with a line of survival knifes, I'd look less on him. But he hasn't, he worked with a high quality company (Helle) to make a knife with his name on it, that's it. He endorses tools he uses, knives, multitools, cameras, stands, etc. which is fine, he trusts them and says as much, same as Ray Mears. The Gerber BG line is mediocre at best, some items like the parang are purely dangerous due to the design if you whack anything larger than a 1" green tree..............

[CanadianMike]

Thankyou tadpole for that analogy. When I see an object, I see beyond its basic function or it's looks or even the materials used. The value of any item has to be calculated by factoring what has gone into its making.
For example, I look at Adams knives (sorry to pick on ye mate) I saw the woodbee he made for Steve and I saw more than just a nice lookin knife. I saw the care and attention applied to the project, the passion to get things just right for a mate, the choice and painstaking concerns about the integrity of the handle- re done many times to get it right. I saw that Adam hasn't been doing this long and it is done whilst learning and developing his own skills, this brings Adams life and his story into the personality of the blade. Id like to see the enjoyment of what he's doing, I'd much rather own a blade (or any object) that I know that the craftsmen was happy in his work and that he put more than just £ signs into its making.
Looking beyond the fact of it being a piece of metal and wood is a thing I cannot help but do. I feel that seeing these things adds value to anything I choose to purchase.

Exactly, as with Tony I've been making knives for a year and a half as well, and am doing well with it, but I do sell them (obviously). One thing that is special about many of us, is that when we know who is getting the knife, we think about that person while we make it, plus we keep them up to speed with pics and questions. The customer gets involved, the knife becomes very much a part of them, much more personal as a valued tool. Is one aspect I love about making knives for people, I put part of their soul in the knife.


Ah but Mike, you are making the common mistake of thinking that bears show is all he does or has done. I like Bear a lot because of what he has done outside of the show.

All the charity work he does, all the world records he holds or has held, his position as lead scout etc, the guy does LOTS for others for no gain to himself. He is a motivational speaker aswell. He climbed everest ( setting a record as the youngest person to do it) after breaking his back in a parachuting accident. Its the things like that that make me respect him for WHO he is, not for what hes PAID to do on tv. :) They aint his choices that has him doing what he does. As for his knives.... selling out to gerber? Not at all, the original bayley knife was stupid expensive and the waiting list got silly too and due to his fan base being large and then his involvement with the scouts he had to get a product out that was available to everyone. The gerber knife in question is actually a VERY good knife for the money. I've held one and it is well built, strong and comfortable, but its not a bushcraft knife and never pretends to be. One was revieved on BCUK and it got a glowing report for its ability to do the job it was intended for.

True true, I don't hear a lot about what Bear does outside the show, do know about his background, and trust me, I don't hate him, I just find his products cheesy (add in, I've never been too impressed with Gerber as a brand.)

BTW, gorgeous knives there!

[HillBill]

Thanks :)

Gerber are not one of the better companies out there, especially in comparison to companies like Fallkniven. Their knives are average at best, but an average knife brings an average price tag. Basically the knife becomes... just a knife for the average wanna be survivalist/boy scout. :)

Ray kinda did the same thing bringing SWC in to make a cheaper version of the woodlore, but then put the price up to silly £££,and they are now more expensive than the woodlore was at the time. He charges as much as he possibly can get away with. I don't mind though, his silly prices bring more custom to the likes of us mere mortals :)

[Martin]

...Leaving school at 14 without being aball to read or SPELL has never botherd me(like it do's MARTIN) I just enjoy makeing them for me.You get the same sense of feeling then a young jukel comes good and catche's it's first shushi or hair or you make that inpossable shot when out and about.End of rant:wink:

Tony,

Your inability to spell doesn't bother me, I just think it's a shame that you are unable to express yourself in writing. I'm sure you have some very interesting points to make which are hampered by your literacy. Sometimes, what I'm sure are very well thought out points become unintelligible and lose all meaning. It is no different to listening to someone with a chronic stammer; I fully understand that it's not their fault but it doesn't make it any easier to understand. Ultimately Tony, if you are comfortable with your standard of reading and writing then I'm chuffed to bits for you and it certainly doesn't bother me. :)

Martin

[CanadianMike]

For the most part I can understand Tony in the way he expresses himself, I guess it's just because I see the meaning past the words most of the time.

Kinda reminds me of this I found on FB last week:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/426577_371197239576402_205344452828349_1375322_118 1308778_n.jpg

[HillBill]

Yaeh its jsut the smae as tihs tinhg im dinog hree. The Barin rcgeonises the frist and lsat ltetres in a wrod and the midlde bit is auotamtilacly fliled in. So if you are a good raeedr tehn msot wrods are lgebile no mtater how tehy are selpt. :)

[CanadianMike]

Atta boy! :)

[udamiano]

Price and beauty are in the eye of the beholder is it not. and one persons junk is another persons treasure, So if someone is prepared to pay that for a knife, so be it. They have accepted a monetary value that they believe is fair to them. I've seen pictures that in my opinion a 5 year old could do better, go for millions (If I could just find a 5 year old, that can sign Van Gough, in the right way LOL).
Just because a person doesn't find value or beauty in an item does not make that item universally ugly or worthless to all

any way thats my 50p anyway

Day

Nice word thing CanadianMike :o

[jbrown14]

OH, DANG...those last couple of posts made my head hurt. :zombie-fighting:

Good thread, gents. I'm enjoying the back and forth.

And Tony, now that I know your story, I'll read with a little more patience. I tend to be a literacy snob; at least in my head. At the end of the day, you get your point across, and I love your knives!

Josh

[Backwoodschuck]

Nope not no way