Lost walker rescued after GPS batteries fail [Archive]

CanadianMike

19-02-2012, 05:28 PM

Exactly! I wouldn't trust any battery powered item as pointed out above, useful to have, if say, you want to mark a location you found and want to return to in the future, but as an only nav aid..... that's just dumb! Just like with a compass, they can go a bit wonky after time, and having a second compass (even a cheap one) with you to cross reference with is the basic point as said above, 'One is none, two is one'. Always have a back up anything, batteries, knife, fire starting means, etc.

Silverback

19-02-2012, 05:35 PM

Edwin

19-02-2012, 05:50 PM

Duplicating equipment doesn't seem practical and if one is lost or ceases to work then you are back to one again, three or more of everything? Being careful and being aware of your location seem more important.

This walker was found when he was making his way back to his car. Dressed appropriately and not lost he may have been grateful for the company and tea but would have been OK anyway.

Basha72

19-02-2012, 06:15 PM

This walker was found when he was making his way back to his car. Dressed appropriately and not lost he may have been grateful for the company and tea but would have been OK anyway.

Possibly ?

It never hurts to have a back up, alot of people don't have a spare compass as some walk in a group and rely on the fact others will have one with them, Ive never used a GPS for walking, never felt the need as the maps have been more than useful enough to show the ground I've walked on, even to the point on good clear days the compass did not need to come out of the pocket, I can appreciate the need for GPS but its not something I've had to have or need.

At least the chap is safe and another reminder is put in peoples laps that things can go wrong and the need to think of the "what if's"

Does anyone still do a route card and leave one back at home etc ?

Basha

Silverback

19-02-2012, 06:52 PM

Does anyone still do a route card and leave one back at home etc ?
Basha

Flipping heck havent filled in a route card since I was doing my DoE. :) Still tell my missus where Im going what time I will be back etc. By default you will always find me with VHF comms (and spare battery)

As for GPS... if it wasnt for my voluntary service I wouldn't have one either. I can navigate well enough using map and compass skills and its a skill that I keep up as it is an integral part of my other activities.

There have been multiple stories like this over the years, and there will be many more to come no doubt (MRT statistics support this trend). Either people becoming lost, cragfast or benighted.. usually down to lack of experience, unsuitable or poorly maintained gear, sheer bloody mindedness, or pure bad luck. Accidents do happen, mistakes are made, we all have to learn one way or another.

One thing I have learned is that all electrical devices (head & hand torches, gps and satmap) use the same size batteries so are interchangeable with one another and I cycle my batteries regularly so they are fresh as can be. I also carry spare gear like hats and gloves and fleeces, in my rucksack. At the moment there are 3 hats, 3 buffs, 3 pairs of gloves and 2 fleeces - these spares aren't intended purely for my use.

Martin

19-02-2012, 08:25 PM

I still fill in a route card, with my intended route and the members of the party. I leave it with the wife with instructions what to do if she doesn't hear from me. I also have a Garmin Etrex which spends its whole life, when I'm out, switched on inside my rucksack. I really enjoy logging my walks and saving them in Memory Map. I can also get a really good idea of how close I really was to where I thought I was which makes it a good training aid too.

I feel pretty confident to navigate over wild country with just a 1:50000 map as I can orientate my map by looking at the features on the ground. However, when you get visibility like we had on Dartmoor this weekend, you really need to get the compass out and walk on a bearing and it makes it even easier if you walk on the bearing provided by the GPS which I would have used if I hadn't left it in the minibus. Doh!!

Martin

Silverback

19-02-2012, 09:10 PM

However, when you get visibility like we had on Dartmoor this weekend, you really need to get the compass out and walk on a bearing and it makes it even easier if you walk on the bearing provided by the GPS which I would have used if I hadn't left it in the minibus. Doh!!

T T practice Martin ?

jus_young

19-02-2012, 09:18 PM

Duh :zombie-fighting:

removed cos I'm just thick sometimes !!

Martin

19-02-2012, 09:40 PM

T T practice Martin ?

Sure was Wayne. Was very wet and wild on Saturday, as bad as I've seen it up there for a very long time. The temperature dropped like a stone as the torrential rain came driving in. We had one very mild case of hypothermia and many more cases of LOMF. Man Up Pills were prescribed for those suffering from LOMF which eventually seemed to cure the affliction.

Was it you who mentioned an easy to remember set of symptoms of hypothermia? If so, can you remind me what it was as Saturday's experience was a classic case.

Martin

Silverback

19-02-2012, 09:53 PM

Was it you who mentioned an easy to remember set of symptoms of hypothermia? If so, can you remind me what it was as Saturday's experience was a classic case.

Yes Mate...the Umbles...Stumbles, Mumbles, Fumbles, & Grumbles.
I can send you a Hypothermia algorithm as used by MR teams and other agencies as a PDF so you can print and laminate a copy to A5 if you want ?

LOMF havent seen that term for ages LOL !

jus_young

19-02-2012, 10:16 PM

Yes Mate...the Umbles...Stumbles, Mumbles, Fumbles, & Grumbles.
I can send you a Hypothermia algorithm as used by MR teams and other agencies as a PDF so you can print and laminate a copy to A5 if you want ?

LOMF havent seen that term for ages LOL !

Could I be cheeky and ask for a copy? Useful info for us scouters there aswell

T^

Ashley Cawley

19-02-2012, 10:29 PM

Sorry to hear you experienced that bad weather on Dartmoor Martin! Scott and I were up there for three days just previous to your visit and had it beautiful ;) :p

Just as we left the moors it was seriously coming in, visibility dropped to next to nothing for most of the drive off Dartmoor!

Still you can tell we had it easy weather-wise though... February on Dartmoor and I was using my traditional flint'n'steel, some charcloth & locally gathered tinder to light our fire (I've always got the Ferrorod on my car-keys as a backup).

rossbird

19-02-2012, 10:40 PM

I don't mind showing my ignorance.
WTF is....LOMF.....hope I'm not going to regret asking:confused:

Martin

19-02-2012, 11:22 PM

I don't mind showing my ignorance.
WTF is....LOMF.....hope I'm not going to regret asking:confused:

Sorry Rossbird, I meant to say. It stands for Lack of Moral Fibre. A few carefully chosed words delivered in the right way normally cures it and if that fails a toe up the ass helps too. ;)

On a serious note, the main problem for the guys who struggled was that they had failed to eat enought before or during the activity. I'm about 3 times older than them and they should all be able to run rings around me but I was skipping up the hills that some of them really struggled on. Hopefully, they've learned a valuable lesson that will stay with them for life.

Martin

Martin

19-02-2012, 11:23 PM

Yes Mate...the Umbles...Stumbles, Mumbles, Fumbles, & Grumbles.
I can send you a Hypothermia algorithm as used by MR teams and other agencies as a PDF so you can print and laminate a copy to A5 if you want ?

LOMF havent seen that term for ages LOL !

Yes please Wayne, it will be good to keep in my bag. I'll PM you my email address.

Martin

CanadianMike

20-02-2012, 12:37 AM

I'm not saying dont use them, just dont rely on them.

I have a Garmin E-Trex and a more expensive Satmap system. To be honest the satmap gets used a hell of a lot...not to navigate with, but to provide a record of where I/we have been - a very useful tool when searching large tracts of land especially in unfamilar areas.

Pretty much my point if I didn't express myself properly, don't rely on them exclusively, have a back up (map and compass)and additional batteries just in case.

Silverback

20-02-2012, 12:37 AM

Yes please Wayne, it will be good to keep in my bag. I'll PM you my email address.

Martin

you have mail

Silverback

20-02-2012, 12:45 AM

Pretty much my point if I didn't express myself properly, don't rely on them exclusively, have a back up (map and compass)and additional batteries just in case.

I was agreeing with you Mike, It was me that didnt get my point across. As I said they have their place but shouldnt be relied upon...The amount of technology thats flowing into my other 'hobby' is astounding, not only can we track handlers on GPS mics on VHF there is a system to track the dogs, a new bit of software is having lots of success called SARLOC only works on smartphones but its there.

Having said all that it is a REQUIREMENT in the other 'hobby' that I can navigate to a high standard, anytime, night or day, and in all weathers (and we have) by manual means alone. If I ever get to the stage that I cant do that then its time to resign...

CanadianMike

20-02-2012, 01:52 AM

Ah, ok. Me, I'm not a basic guy by far, I have quite a few apps on my Blackberry including GPS (lat/long/compass), as well as Google Maps which is GPS powered as well, but I suspect mostly they are tower based. Still, I know the limits of it, and bought a CF-29 Toughbook and an USP GPS receiver for those times I'm out of cell reception, still looking for an affordable map/GPS peice of software I can use and trust. But, even then, I want a map of anywhere I plan to go, even if just a road map and knowing the section I'm at, and a couple compasses, just in case. Redundancy can be lightweight, and the benefits far outweigh the negatives.

Al21

20-02-2012, 11:03 AM

I like my little GPS device as a handy tool, but prefer a map and compass for those 'life might depend on it' times. Anyway, who doesn't love studying maps! :)

For me the most interesting thing in the story comes from one of the comments. Once you get past the map and compasses are sooo last century and GPS are the spawn of satan comments there's one which mentions car drivers arriving at a destination using GPS are often disorientated. I wasn't sure at first what the poster was getting at, but it struck me that there's a difference between driving somewhere and being a passenger. As a driver I can easily remember where I've been and how to get back, but as a passenger I've not recorded the same journey if you follow me.

Now, I can't help wondering if there's a similar difference between GPS and map use. With a map I can picture the landscape from the map and know where I am at all times. If the weather closes in the compass comes into play and all is well. With a GPS I feel disconnected and just following another's instructions and less likely to have that complete picture in my mind. It works, but it's not such a comfortable feeling. I hope this makes sense!

Al

Silverback

20-02-2012, 01:25 PM

Al21

20-02-2012, 02:25 PM

Interesting article too

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/countryside/9090729/Warning-over-decline-in-map-skills-as-ramblers-rely-on-sat-navs.html

I've got to say I find that quite disturbing. The bit about wardens and rangers being regularly asked for the postcodes of hill/mountain tops for fools to try out a bit of hill walking particularly so.

Al

Silverback

20-02-2012, 02:29 PM

I've got to say I find that quite disturbing. The bit about wardens and rangers being regularly asked for the postcodes of hill/mountain tops for fools to try out a bit of hill walking particularly so.

Al

Remember the ones that then go up there to guide or even carry them back...every one a volunteer.

Al21

20-02-2012, 02:39 PM

Remember the ones that then go up there to guide or even carry them back...every one a volunteer.

I was.

Maybe I should start a campaign to have these fools dragged to a tattooist parlour where the they can have tattooed across their foreheads 'do not allow to breed!'. :evilgrin:

Al

rossbird

20-02-2012, 03:35 PM

Useful links to navigation advice Sorry its UK based only and I cannot find any links from Lowland SAR only Mountain Rescue - however IMHO the same advice applies.

http://www.safeinthehills.org.uk/Navigation.aspx

http://www.mountain.rescue.org.uk/mountain-advice

Two good links there Wayne, worth a few minutes of anybody's time.

Interesting article too

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/countryside/9090729/Warning-over-decline-in-map-skills-as-ramblers-rely-on-sat-navs.html

As for this one, well, sign of modern life maybe
People want to experience many things, some just don't want to put any preparation in.
Just spend some money on a device and away they go. You must find it frustrating at times, having to go find them in all weathers.
But I'm glad you do:)

Silverback

20-02-2012, 03:55 PM

I was.

Maybe I should start a campaign to have these fools dragged to a tattooist parlour where the they can have tattooed across their foreheads 'do not allow to breed!'. :evilgrin:

Al

Im not that judgemental Al, I have colleagues who arent quite as forgiving ;)

I have never been lost on Kinder, but I have had a few moments where I have been 'Navigationally challenged' it can and does happen ....to anyone. I have even turned an ankle and had to be stretchered off, not an experience I wish to repeat but it does put things in perspective.

Silverback

20-02-2012, 03:58 PM

You must find it frustrating at times, having to go find them in all weathers.

We dont HAVE to. It is a choice, but if we didnt, who would ? Thing is these days we are as likely to end up in York/selby/doncaster/congleton looking for a missing person as we are going up a mountain....

jus_young

20-02-2012, 05:40 PM

Could I be cheeky and ask for a copy? Useful info for us scouters there aswell

T^

Thanks Wayne, you're a gent.

Silverback

20-02-2012, 05:49 PM

Thanks Wayne, you're a gent.

Aah you got it then...You're welcome. Always happy to help;)

Al21

21-02-2012, 05:22 PM

Im not that judgemental Al, I have colleagues who arent quite as forgiving ;)

You're a better man than me then. I wish I had your patience with people.

As I've said to you elsewhere, I know folks in the Scarborough and Ryedale MRT - I know for a fact they've been involved in the recovery of at least two bodies from local rivers due to the equipment and skills they have. Seems a lot to ask of volunteers to me, my hat is off to those who step up to be counted under such circumstances!

I have never been lost on Kinder, but I have had a few moments where I have been 'Navigationally challenged' it can and does happen ....to anyone. I have even turned an ankle and had to be stretchered off, not an experience I wish to repeat but it does put things in perspective.

I'd have to confess to having been er 'Temporarily uncertain of my current position' on Kinder once myself. Stopping and having a brew and some calm thought seemed to do the trick. I've not had to resort to eating the flat Mars bar yet!

That you've had to be stretchered off yourself merely serves to highlight that MR teams are their for genuine accidents that can happen to anyone. I wouldn't want to think that your rescue might have been delayed for someone calling for help when they'd just run out of 'Betty's speciality Parkin'.

Al

Silverback

21-02-2012, 05:41 PM

Seems a lot to ask of volunteers to me, my hat is off to those who step up to be counted under such circumstances!

Best kept secret in the emergency services world is MR. Behind most of the stories you see on the news there is probably an MR involvement - Lockerbie, Kegworth, Floods, Snow, Cumbrian rail crash, most of the high profile searches (the Naburn Lock search now) that you see will have some kind of MR/SAR volunteers in it, the Cumbrian shootings, even Raoul Moat believe it or not!!!

Al21

22-02-2012, 10:21 AM

Best kept secret in the emergency services world is MR. Behind most of the stories you see on the news there is probably an MR involvement - Lockerbie, Kegworth, Floods, Snow, Cumbrian rail crash, most of the high profile searches (the Naburn Lock search now) that you see will have some kind of MR/SAR volunteers in it, the Cumbrian shootings, even Raoul Moat believe it or not!!!

I know you don't do this to get praise, but people really should start to understand just how much this country relies on volunteers and charitable donations to run some of it's most important rescue services. MR, RNLI, Air Ambulance, I wonder how many have had reason to be thankful when taken ill at a public event and found someone in the black uniform of St John Ambulance Brigade helping them in those often vital first few minutes.

Military SAR are obviously invaluable, but are funded from the tax payers purse. I wonder though if that would continue if the tasks they undertake didn't provide training scenarios all but impossible to simulate.

It's knowing this that increases my frustration and anger when reading stories involving ill prepared people needing rescue from situations that would have just been a bit a nuisance to folks who know what they're doing. I hope the guy from this story was asked for some sizable 'Voluntary Contributions'! ;)

Al

Silverback

22-02-2012, 11:54 AM

I know you don't do this to get praise, but people really should start to understand just how much this country relies on volunteers and charitable donations to run some of it's most important rescue services. MR, RNLI, Air Ambulance

Estimates put the figure @ Circa £5Bn, and in return some of those organisations pay VAT and Tax on donations and purchases - effectively paying to provide a free service ?

Military SAR are obviously invaluable, but are funded from the tax payers purse. I wonder though if that would continue if the tasks they undertake didn't provide training scenarios all but impossible to simulate.

They are going in 2015, in a deal first concieved by Gordon Brown and Labour SAR Helos will be taken over by a private consortium

It's knowing this that increases my frustration and anger when reading stories involving ill prepared people needing rescue from situations that would have just been a bit a nuisance to folks who know what they're doing. I hope the guy from this story was asked for some sizable 'Voluntary Contributions'! ;)

The number of ill prepared people rescued is actually fairly low - save your anger, it will lower your blood pressure and you'll live longer.;)

Edwin

22-02-2012, 03:51 PM

There is a real problem with the ease of modern communications in that just because you can report in regularly then you are expected to and it is the failure of communication one way or the other that mostly triggers rescue efforts. I don't know the solution except to tell those at home or base that they won't hear unless it is an emergency or leave the phone at home and rely on oneself as we used to.

Al21

22-02-2012, 06:26 PM

The number of ill prepared people rescued is actually fairly low - save your anger, it will lower your blood pressure and you'll live longer.;)

I'm pleased to hear the numbers are lower than might be expected.

Some of my anger is exaggerated for effect. I've not achieved the vein pulsing on my temples yet. :)

If only I could find somewhere local to me that I could chill out in the woods legally then I'd be guaranteed sensible blood pressure figures.

Al

Silverback

22-02-2012, 08:17 PM

If only I could find somewhere local to me that I could chill out in the woods legally then I'd be guaranteed sensible blood pressure figures.

Just spent the last 4 hours searching some woods. Plenty of evidence of people using it for camping, and thats why we have the issues we do too many leave all their crap behind bottles, cans, fire dogs, a half arsed attempt at a woodgas stove and to cap it all clothing and a tent !! - not only does it spoil it for us bushies but it made my job a damn sight harder too.

Dan XF

26-02-2012, 07:49 AM

I have to admit to being an Ex Officer, and as the saying goes, what's the most dangerous thing in the Armed Forces? An Officer with a map. But I did work in a Navy SAR Sqn, only we flew in nice bushcraft approved green HC4 Seakings. We used to spend a lot of time picking up the nautical equivalent of these same numpties. It still amazes me to think that people will buy a boat and then without any instruction or charts will set out in to busy shipping lanes with no life jackets, no idea how long their fuel will last, no idea of where they are, no idea of where the shallows and rocks are, no idea of which lights to use andno appreciation of just how difficult it is for a tanker to change direction when you blunder in to it's path. Some of them just rely on channel 17 and a red flare. Incidentaly, firing the red flare straight at your rescue helicopter is not the best way to start your relationship, I had one zip by so close when I was on the winch that I could smell it even in the down wash. Madness I tell you. Makes the Mountain Numptie look a lot more intelligent than it's close relative the Wading Numptie.

Edwin

26-02-2012, 08:03 AM

Why would they use channel 17? Round here in Cornwall and elsewhere as far as I know channel 16 is the one that people keep a listening watch on. Not sure if the policy change that would have the Coastguard no longer keeping a watch on 16 has come in yet.

Dan XF

26-02-2012, 08:15 AM

Silverback

26-02-2012, 03:16 PM

I thought it was 17. Maybe it was 16. I could be wrong, wouldn't be the first time. Maybe 17 is the military channel. I know that civilian aircraft use a different emergency frequency to military. Of course that may have changed since as well.

Hey Dan dont sweat it, its not as if you're on Mastermind is it ? Mil Airframes are on different systems to civvie and most use Airwave now anyway.

Listening watch on Ch 16 ended in 2005 as far as I know with the restructure by OFCOM/MCA/UKSAROG

Edwin

26-02-2012, 03:41 PM

I hear Yachtsmen regularly asking the Falmouth Coastguard for a radio check on channel 16 as do freighters asking for berthing information. Of course they are asked to switch to another channel when contact is made.

Edwin

26-02-2012, 03:52 PM

Apparently the Coastguard will monitor ch 16 by a loudspeaker in the control room but a specific headphone watch may be kept as circumstance dictate. What will happen with the closure and reduction of Coastguard stations I don't know. Certainly a 5Kw handheld VHF is never going to reach Southampton or Falmouth from the Brixham area. Maybe repeater stations or the National Coastwatch Institute may plug the gap again.

Silverback

26-02-2012, 04:01 PM

Listening watch on Ch 16 ended in 2005 as far as I know with the restructure by OFCOM/MCA/UKSAROG

As I thought

"It is not currently compulsory to maintain a listening watch on VHF Channel 16. The introduction of GMDSS means that all emergency, safety and routine messages are received without needing a dedicated listening watch to be maintained.

Since February 2005, HMCG discontinued their dedicated headset listening on Channel 16, but they do continue a loudspeaker watch."

FishyFolk

09-04-2012, 01:42 PM

Here in Norway we learn something called "the 10 mountain rules" they go as follows:

1. Don't go on a long trek without exercise/training
2. Tell someone where you are going/what the route will be
3. Respect the weather and the weather reports
4. Be equipped for storms and cold temperatures, even on short trips, always bring a rucksack and the equipment that the terrain/mountain demands
5. Listen to experienced mountaineers
7. Use a map and compass
8. Don't go alone (well...uh...for me thats the whole idea, to get some alone time)
9. Turn back before it is to late. It's never any shame in returning.
10. Save your strength, and dig into the snow if necessary

Abide by that and most people will be okay. But a lot of people still die in the mountains up here every year. Some becouse the deliberatly challenge nature, like those french tourists who recently set off an avalanche as the last thing they did in their lives, others becosue they don't come prepared for what is up there....

Else I always carry a map and compass as my main means of navigation. But I normally gpo to areas I know well, so it's seldom that I actually use it actively. I don't have the money to fork out on a GPS. But if I need my excact position, I bring my HTC phone , and that has an in built GPS, and I can use the screen as a locator beacon when the choppers come to get me out of trouble....I keep it switched off to save the batteries for an emergency. So thats my compromise. But what I rely on is that other people know where I am going, and at what time I am supposed to arrive, and will report me missing.