Meths - The alternatives

[Hushwing]

Hi, have been wondering for a wee while whether the paint brush cleaner they often sell on the same shelf as the meths is useable in a meths stove. It is inflammable. But is it a lot nastier than meths for fumes or for soot etc? Anyone know? Are there other alternatives to meths which equally are cheaper?

cheers

>C

[Thumbcrusher]

terpentine or terps substitute is very sooty when it burns mate. i'd avoid it to be honest!

[cuppa joe]

It depends what you are using it in ...be careful trying other chemicals in meth's stoves it can have explosive results...never use petrol unless the manufacturer states it is suitable.

[jus_young]

Going by various attempts made by other forum members (threads are posted somewhere) there generally seems to be no alternative that has been deemed successful or even safe. Its just a case of finding a cheap supplier which, fortunately for some of us SW'ers, we have down here.

[Martin]

I have 5 litres of methanol which I still haven't tried out yet. The trouble is, it's more expensive than methylated spirits. :D

Martin

[Tony1948]

Go on Martin try it,the fumes off Methanol are well versatile,shoud be a laugh.:happy-clapping:

[jus_young]

My father-in-law worked on the RAF base before it changed to Marines a good few years ago. He would get hold of aviation fuel fo various DIY stuff, good paint stripper apparently. Now that stuff went up well but wouldn't dare try it in a meths burner!

[AL...]

The Meth Burner would proubley hit Mach2 in about 3 seconds hahaha

Cheers
AL

[jbrown14]

Don't take my word for gospel truth, but methanol (or wood alcohol) is actually quite a viable stove fuel and is used by ultra-light backpackers over here quite a bit. The most common way they get it that I know is in the form of gas-line antifreeze like Heet. (http://www.goldeagle.com/brands/heet/default.aspx) I used it once in my Coke can stove, and it worked just the same as the denatured alcohol (methylated alcohol or meths) I usually use in it.

This past weekend, I thought I'd try some acetone in it, and even though it did burn and did boil some water, it had a large ugly orange flame that seemed to be more shine than substance. It wasn't really sooty that I could tell, but it definitely wasn't the calm, blue flame that I associate with the alcohol.

I definitely wouldn't recommend the paint brush cleaner, whether it' turpentine or mineral spirits. Both are very sooty when they burn, and may even impart a nasty flavor to your food (along with who knows what else.)

Good luck!

Josh

[Hushwing]

Thanks all for that feedback - suspected that the paint brush cleaner was probably a no go area but having seen the meths next to it - thought I would ask.

Petrol- I wouldn't risk; having accidently taken out two small 8ft garden conifers with it (in the space of 2 seconds) - my 5 year old son's call of "wahayyyy do that again, Dad" still rings in my ears - from what I thought was a safe distance and small amount. "It's the vapors you have to watch out for" (which will someday be quoted in a Stephen King novel, I'm sure!)

Heet - I have heard of and until now didn't think we could get in the UK but we can but looks a lot more expensive (willing to be corrected on this!!)

and for those new to zippo handwarmers - the zippo fuel is incredibly sooty.

Thanks again for answering the question.....

[NeedABrew]

I'm rather late to this thread but I would like to give a thumbs up for the use of methanol.

Somebody who isn't me for legal reasons may just have made a rather efficient still a few years back. It's fully capable of producing alcohol at ~93% abv.

On a five gallon wash, the first 30ml of the run will be methanol and therefore bad to drink. Said person, who I will once again emphasise is not me, always draws off the first 50 or 60ml just to me sure but it gets stored and used as fuel in home made beer tin stoves.

It works an absolute treat with no discernible difference to meths other than there is absolutely no smell from it at all.

Martin have you given it a try yourself yet?

[moontanboy]

Go on Martin try it,the fumes off Methanol are well versatile,shoud be a laugh.:happy-clapping:

Tony, is that how you see so many bears ?? lol

[GwersyllaCnau]

I have 5 litres of methanol which I still haven't tried out yet. The trouble is, it's more expensive than methylated spirits. :D

Martin

DON'T!!!!!!!

When I was working in a lab I could get all kinds of combustible chemicals "free" e.g. ethanol, acetone, toluene. After effectively turning my trangia into either a flame thrower or a bomb I went back to meths but it still took about 200ml of meths being burnt in the trangia to get rid of the dangerous residue of the other chemicals.

To hushwing and anyone else thinking of burning anything other than meths, please do not try it!! I cannot stress this enough.

[happybonzo]

The meths burners are the most simple to use.
It's always seemed a shame that there isn't a burner that could be made to use petrol or diesel in the same manner.

[GwersyllaCnau]

The meths burners are the most simple to use.
It's always seemed a shame that there isn't a burner that could be made to use petrol or diesel in the same manner.

With meths, its the liquid that burns. With petrol its the fumes. Trangia style petrol stove = big fireball.

[happybonzo]

With meths, its the liquid that burns. With petrol its the fumes. Trangia style petrol stove = big fireball.

Surely it's the vapour that burns with Meths? Hence when the weather is really cold you have to get the fuel to vaporise to enable it to go through the little holes and burn

[NeedABrew]

Surely it's the vapour that burns with Meths? Hence when the weather is really cold you have to get the fuel to vaporise to enable it to go through the little holes and burn

That's what I was thinking too whilst wondering why I haven't blown myself up yet... :happy-clapping:

A quick bit of research shows....

Fuel Boiling point (Degrees C)

Meths 78.5
Alcohol 78.37
Methanol 65
Petrol 32

So I'm assuming that the lower boiling point of petrol is effectively what makes it even more volatile than the other fuels - It vaporises at a much lower temperature so the burn is faster and more volatile.

Now, assuming what I have been burning is actually a mix of methanol and alcohol I will go on to assume that the methanol is burnt off much quicker (i.e. first) and is therefore gone during the part of the burn that primes my stove. Once it's gone I am over to burning alcohol which is hardly any different to meths in its boiling point which could be why I've not noticed any difference.

Does that sound reasonable to those that know?

I've never actually tried my methanol/alcohol mix in a trangia as I always use hand made stoves but apart from sheer build quality I can't imagine there being much difference? I will give it a try later (under controlled conditions just in case!)

[cuppa joe]

Either way ..Never put petrol in a meths burner ... you risk burns or even death DONT TRY IT petrol vapour under heated pressure will spread through the air and wick into your clothes turning you into a fireball .....I saw it at a barbecue and the guy needed plastic surgery ,skin grafts ....I can't stress enough DON'T EVER PUT PETROL IN ANY CAMP STOVE UNLESS IT'S SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED FOR IT.

[TreeCamper]

I used an old tin of Isopropyl Alchohol in my Coke Can stove.
It works very well but you have a little soot on your pans.
I believe the Meths gives off more heat too.
So its back to good old Meths for me.:campfire:

[FishyFolk]

With meths, its the liquid that burns. With petrol its the fumes. Trangia style petrol stove = big fireball.

Let me tell you a little story.
When I was in the army doing my national service, we slept in squad tents (will hold 10 people in comfort in a very low tipee style tent) with a wood burning stove. A lot of the time the wood we got was either wet or not properly dried birch. So one of the tricks we emplyed to make it burn, was to pour cold Denatured alcohol which is what we use in Norway instead of meths. (is it the same?) in the ash tray of the stove. That would burn and dry the wood in the main fuel chamber. But you must never , ever do this with a warm or hot stove.

One day at the start of an excercice, our brand, spit polish new 2nd Leutenant comes along and orders me to set up the tent for the platoons officers. But he has spent enough time with us so that the other officers have thought the man enough manners to actually give me a hand. So we set up the tent and the officer grab the tent oven and set that up, while I fetch some wood. I come back and he stuffs the
thing full, of wet wood and uses a newspaper for kindling. Og course that thing burns for 2 minutes and the fire is out.

Then he tells me to get the bottle of Denatured alcohol and proceed to pour that into the ash tray of the now hot oven. I could smell the gas so I tried to pipe up with a warning.
But got a lecture about millitary ranks and where my place as a private was in that system. So I salluted the man smartly with a "Javel Fenrik!", and hastilly retreated..
10 seconds later there was a "wooomp!" sound and the tent balloned out, and was ripped out of the groundpegs, and the 2lt comes staggering out with no facial hair what so ever, with quite a red tinge to his face...

It's definately the vapours that burn...lol'

Anyway, unless Denatured alcohol is the same as methylated spirits, that should make a good alternative. It's what we use in Norway, and I can buy 5 litres of it for 3-4£ I think thats quite okay.

[NeedABrew]

^^^^^^^^ Highly amused :-)

Lol FishyFolk!

I've just done a quick search which has kind of confirmed about meths & alohol. They are both exactly the same apart from meths has additives to make it undrinkable. It is indeed also known as denatured alcohol.

I suspect then that methanol has actually been very low in what I've been burning and it's actually just been mostly regular strong alcohol.

[NeedABrew]

Anyhow I have just knocked this up so will be giving it a try with some alcohol in a while when it starts to get dark :-)

http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/7619/20120721180729.jpg

[Richie]

When I get home (Wednesday) I will do a side by side comparison video to clear up some of the myths written here. The ethanol I use is 99.9% virgin.

Also, up until recently my buddy was in RAF and trained other ADR drivers on explosive fuels. As part of the training he would drop a lit cigarette into a bucket of kerosene with no effect.
Kerosene is no more explosive or volatile than paraffin ( basically they are the same thing).



---
I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=53.377438,-1.522781

[FishyFolk]

When I get home (Wednesday)
Kerosene is no more explosive or volatile than paraffin ( basically they are the same thing).


When I speak Norwegian I use the word paraffin, and when I use Englsih I say kerosene...I was not even aware that paraffin was the word for it in England too...

[Richie]

We use the word paraffin in the uk and Kerosene is generally thought of as an American name. I'm no expert on this but happy to take the word of someone who is.

Anyway, I'm picking up another 25 ltrs of 99.9% methanol tomorrow so looking forward to doing a side-by-side comparison with meths.

The supplier tells me that his stock is 100% methanol but the containers are vented and as such the methanol may absorb a minute amount of water from the atmosphere which is why he rates it as 99.9%.
A bit like domestos killing 99.9% of all known germs I expect.

[happybonzo]

petrol vapour under heated pressure will spread through the air and wick into your clothes turning you into a fireball .....I saw it at a barbecue and the guy needed plastic surgery ,skin grafts IT.

As this student found out the hard way (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=37e_1341416987) - not safe for work and not for the faint hearted

[Proventurer]

Hi, have been wondering for a wee while whether the paint brush cleaner they often sell on the same shelf as the meths is useable in a meths stove. It is inflammable. But is it a lot nastier than meths for fumes or for soot etc? Anyone know? Are there other alternatives to meths which equally are cheaper?

cheers

>C

Ok!
Time to bring out the heavy guns, see the following: www.zenstoves.net under the heading miscellany, see fuels!
This guy covers it all!

[Tigger004]

Just some experimenting, I have bought some bio-ethanol from B & Q £5 for 2 litres

Tried it in my white box stove and a couple of homemade alcohol burners and it worked quite well, comparing it with meths I found it better for cooking for two reasons
1. doesn't liberate as violently, so a better simmer
and 2. very low odour

Having said that it is obviously slower than meths at boiling water for a brew.

I have also tried it in the tatonka and trangia alcohol stoves great for simmering especially with a simmer ring but pretty poor indeed for a fast boil brew (it's much,much slower)

On the safety side - bio-ethanol is great due to a visible flame but is a clear liquid so it could be mistaken for water, I haven't tried it yet at very low temperatures yet but suspect it will be worse than meths,

[Phrayzar]

Here in OZ, Meths, or metho, as it gets called is actually 95% grain ethanol(the other 5%, being water). It's the fuel we all use in alcy stoves. It makes the fuel a little less toxic and is actually safe to drink(although you would swear it was toxic if you tasted it :zombie-fighting:).

Like all the others have said, liquid such as white gas,petrol,cellulose thinners etc are all very flashy and should be avoided unless a fireball is your preferred cooking method.:wink: