People these days! :@

[Bhunterbushcraft]

New-age walkers are getting ridiculous!

Now i say this but I am only 17. Most people nowadays use solely GPS as they are unable to use a map and compass. Recently I was up the Lomond Hills (Fife, Scotland) with friends camping and a German woman happened to stroll in. We were about half a click from any tracks so how on earth did she find us?

She was lost. She was using GPS...on her phone..

Now these are the time of people that phone emergency services to help them and it is ridiculous.
Never trust phone GPS OR leave the house without a map!


:guns:

[Martin]

Well said that man!!

Having a map, a proper compass, and the ability to use them are as essential as a rucksack full of gear when out in the hills.

Having said that, I went for a walk on Dartmoor on Saturday. I planned the full trip using the map and then programmed the way marks into my GPS. That meant that I only had to get the map out a couple of times all day and the compass came out once to make sure I left the top of a tor in the correct direction.

Martin

[Ashley Cawley]

...
Never trust phone GPS OR leave the house without a map!
You would have laughed at me the other day! I left the house for a coastal walk (intended to take my map) but my friend and I were so keen looking at it in the office I left it there by mistake! Not only that but when we were out on the trail I decided to use my Garmin GPS for the first time in ages just to waypoint the car and measure walked distance - and the batteries ran out half-way through our walk! :ashamed:

Dosen't matter though, thankfully it was only a casual stroll along coastal footpaths... getting lost for me out there would have only put a smile on my face.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8441/7751846520_19552b319d_n.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ashleycawley/7751846520/) http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8305/7751881492_e0a9cc18fa_n.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ashleycawley/7751881492/) http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8444/7751863086_87d8d3b404_n.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ashleycawley/7751863086/)

[rich290185]

i use a GPS WITH a map but the compass is always with me and never runs out of battery's.

GPS are great but as Martin said been able to use a map and compass (and having it with you ;) )is essential!!!

[jbrown14]

Very well said, and awesome to know that a young man like you has that kind of good sense in his head as well. So many are fixated on their electronic gadgets and trusting in technology to get them out of a bind. There are also the people who just go blindly into the wild thinking that every trail out there should be as well marked as a city bus route.

Your story reminded me of something that I encountered was when I and two friends were on our way back to camp after summiting one of the High Peaks in the Adirondack mountains. Between us we probably had about 50 to 60 years hiking experience (aged 29, 38 and 49 at the time...) and all of us had been trained in the proper use of map and compass. We had been hiking about 10 hours already that day, and it was getting on toward early twilight when we ran into a group that consisted of one man I'd say was in his early to mid twenties, and about 12 to 15 girls who were all in their teens. Maybe one or two had a pack, the rest carried at most a water bottle. All were dressed in shorts and t-shirts, with maybe a sweatshirt (jumper) or a jacket tied around their waist. All wore running shoes. They were on a trail that was headed into the area we had just left, heading uphill, away from civilization, away from water, toward some very unforgiving terrain. As we began to speak with the man, he explained that he was a girls high-school basketball coach who thought it would be a good training exercise to take his team for a day-hike in the backcountry. We pointed out that he was headed toward trails that would take him a day and a half to walk back to civilization and he got confused for a moment and said, Oh, I thought we were heading back toward Marcy Dam. We said, well, if you get out your map, we can show you exactly where you are, and the shortest route back to where you need to go.

His answer? I left my map in the car, but I thought I remembered enough of it to get through the hike once I realized we didn't have it. We pulled him aside away from the girls so they wouldn't get too nervous and explained the true peril of his situation to him. You're in a remote area, realistically, you're about 6-8 miles from the trailhead, you have about 1 1/2 hours of real light left before it starts to get really dark, and you are not prepared to spend the night. We topped off all their water. Gave them detailed directions on how to get out (written down) and walked with them down to the nearest trail junction where we could point them in the right direction. Then we all prayed within ourselves that they would make it out before dark.

We still talk about that one. Just unbelievable.

[AL...]

16 folk taken off the hills here in Scotland over the weekend because they were useing there iphones instead of a Map and compass. That has to be the hight of dumbness .

Cheers
AL

[Silverback]

No surprise to find me making comment on this thread. I would urge those thinking of venturing off the beaten track without the ability to find your way about to spare a thought for the impact they have on others.
There is no right to rescue in the UK, you cannot demand a helicopter (people have) and mountain rescue and incidentally the rnli are staffed entirely by volunteers.

As someone who regularly turns out to search for the lost and injured I am no longer surprised by the reasons in which the person got lost in the first place. There are many and it would be inappropriate to post the details here although the group trying to walk the pennine way with a road map immediately springs to mind.

Suffice to say we do not stand in judgement and all are treat with equal dignity and civility although some words of guidance may be indicated

[FishyFolk]

We do get more and more of this silliness over here as well...that said. I have used my mobile phones GPS once or twice. But that was just as a speedy way of getting my grid sorted. As soon as I activate the GPS the batteries just goes "slurp" and they are empty. I do have a map and compass as well and know how to use it. The nice thing about the phone GPS is that you can send your coordinates via SMS to rescue services. But this of course requires you to be aware of the limitations of it, and that you actually learn how to use it, something most people seem to be quite ignorant of.

We used that with luck in Africa when some of our people got nabbed by a local militia group in Darfur. They had a Thuraya sat phone with them, that for some reason they where allowed to keep. So they simply got a GPS fix from it, and sent an SMS with their position to us, and our unarmed Danish and very courageous security officer simply boarded a helicopter, and went out there, and got them released...I think they militia guys where so dumbstruck that somebody could be that stupid that they just let them all go, lol

[TreeCamper]

Navigation and Hydration

We all know the importance of carrying sufficient water on our outings.

Having competed in a few Cross Country competitions in very hot weather. Every year there is someone carrying all the necessary navigation equipment even a mobile phone with connection and getting into difficulties.

The thing is once you become dehydrated and possibly overheat your ability to reason and calculate goes out the window. We have seen people below us from a hilltop walk in circles, drop their equipment and even walk away from a main road and farmhouse. We have had to run down to them get them in the shade and give them water and cool them down before they regain their senses. Some people are still carrying water but have not drank enough.

Now I know we are not competing but there will be times when we try to get somewhere a bit quicker carrying a heavy pack. Maybe we are wearing too much clothing, take a layer off, pace yourself, take it easy and try not to sweat.

GPS units are great and I use one a lot. (for first time users)Be extremely careful when entering your waypoints as a single digit incorrectly entered can get you well out of your way and leave you short of time for reaching your destination.

So my twopence worth is stay well hydrated at all times it will help with your navigation and general clear thinking.

Map & Compass first, electronics as an aid.

Apologies for stating the obvious to the experienced but there maybe new explorers reading this thread.

Tony

[happybonzo]

We used that with luck in Africa when some of our people got nabbed by a local militia group in Darfur. They had a Thuraya sat phone with them, that for some reason they where allowed to keep. So they simply got a GPS fix from it, and sent an SMS with their position to us, and our unarmed Danish and very courageous security officer simply boarded a helicopter, and went out there, and got them released...I think they militia guys where so dumbstruck that somebody could be that stupid that they just let them all go, lol

Good grief - they should have qualified for a Darwin Award doing something like that

[FishyFolk]

Good grief - they should have qualified for a Darwin Award doing something like that

That may well be true, but thats what humantitarian aid workers do every day. Risk their lives to help others. Sometimes you just have to do what you normally would not.
And they cant arm themselves for risk of being seen as part of whatever conflict is the reasion for them having to be there in the first place. But thats a discussion beyond the
scope of this forum, so we'll leave it there.

[happybonzo]

Quite agree

[FishyFolk]

I would not have thought it possible.

But just read the local papers net edition, and aparantly some lady got lost in the fog in the hills, and no less than 4 mountain rescue patrols where out looking for her. She called it in.
We are on an island. You simply walk down until you hit a road (you can drive right around the island), walk until you come to a road sign or something, and call a friend to pick you up...

But okay, maybe she was wet, starting to suffer from exposure, and thus getting disoriented, needing medicine....etc...nor was any map mentioned...and this si Norways largest Island...so perhaps she was exhausted combined with any of the above...

But still!

[happybonzo]

Slightly off topic - I was in a large car parts and accessories place and they were selling compasses and other assorted "survival aids".
I asked if I could try one outside the shop and the assistants were quite happy to let me do that.
Not one showed a true North as I also had my Silva expedition S to check them against. It was quite funny until one realised that people might actually rely on one.

[Silverback]

Mm its ok selling the stuff shame some dont have the skill to use them, another 'rescue' made the internet mag 'grough' yesterday

[happybonzo]

Mm its ok selling the stuff shame some dont have the skill to use them, another 'rescue' made the internet mag 'grough' yesterday

Bet they were popular - THIS ONE? (http://www.grough.co.uk/magazine/2012/08/16/rescuers-in-night-search-for-lost-walkers-who-found-their-own-way-to-safety)

Regarding the dodgy compasses: Even if the people had been able to read them, they would still have ended up in ***t as they were so inaccurate

[FishyFolk]

Bet they were popular - THIS ONE? (http://www.grough.co.uk/magazine/2012/08/16/rescuers-in-night-search-for-lost-walkers-who-found-their-own-way-to-safety)

Regarding the dodgy compasses: Even if the people had been able to read them, they would still have ended up in ***t as they were so inaccurate

"The walkers had left the path and could not find their way."

If you don't know where you are, don't leave the #"¤%#"¤% path!

[AL...]

Dont think that lot should have left home never mind the path!

Cheers
AL

[Silverback]

Nope not that one....

[happybonzo]

Nope not that one....

There was another lot? What goes through these people's minds, if anything?

[Silverback]

Usually some firm advice ;-)

[Martin]

Forgive my ignorance, but how can a magnetic compass be inaccurate?

Martin

[FishyFolk]

Forgive my ignorance, but how can a magnetic compass be inaccurate?

Martin


Well, putting two compasses next to each other to compare them is one way...they will tend to want to point in slightly different directions as they affect each other. Then the well known brand name compass
in the owners mind will be the "accurate" compass of the two i guess... :ashamed:

[happybonzo]

Forgive my ignorance, but how can a magnetic compass be inaccurate?

Martin

also when the card hasn't been glued down properly...

[Silverback]

Using a northern hemisphere compass in the south

[Martin]

I've never had a card in a compass before and, surely, the magnetic needle will point to the magnetic north and south poles? One magnet can't be more magnetic than another, surely?

I've heard of northern and southern hemisphere compasses, and I believe it has something to do with the way the needle is weighted, but can't imagine there would be too many Aussie compasses sold in the uk?

Anyway, it was just a thought. :)

Martin

[Silverback]

Going back to my original point. It makes stuff all difference whether your compass is mils or degrees(unless your in the military of course) a silva, suunto,recta or bargain basement, whether your at gear snob or can only shop at aldi....if you dont have the basic skills to use the kit you bought

[paulthefish2009]

Sapper, I know it's off topic but what would you recomend as a decent reliable compass? I currently use a ww2 issue bakalite "engineer" ( the one with the flip up sights). Living in leafy surrey as I do I just use it for fun to be honest, I find it interesting to navagate my way about,go for a walk and using the compass find my way back the way I came. Hope that makes sense. (excuse spelling,it's been a long day!). paul

[Silverback]

I use a silva expedition 4 marked in degrees although I can work in the more accurate mils system. I also have an army issue sighting compass

[paulthefish2009]

Thanks sapper, unlike you I dont need to rely on my compass but I do find it interesting and it's a usfull skill to learn. Paul

[Silverback]

To be honest I dont need to rely on it either on a job I'm usually assigned a navigator for mutual safety reasons. However I use map and compass when out for pleasure to hone and keep up this vital skill set.

[FishyFolk]

To be honest I dont need to rely on it either on a job I'm usually assigned a navigator for mutual safety reasons. However I use map and compass when out for pleasure to hone and keep up this vital skill set.

My problem is that there are so many familliar features that is always within sight here, that I always know, if not to the meter where I am, then ate last I can plunk myself down within a 200x200 meter square. There is always a mountain, hill, island whatever within that is familar to me, and then I know my direction. So I don't really need to navigate. At the same time the terrrain makes it impssible to go in a straight line for more than a few meters at a time. So navigation by map here is for me just to find out where I am on the map, and find a path that will take me in the general direction of where I want to be...
So I do not get much map training. I could with a little good will of course...but the fun is lost.

[Silverback]

My problem is that there are so many familliar features that is always within sight here, that I always know, if not to the meter where I am, then ate last I can plunk myself down within a 200x200 meter square. There is always a mountain, hill, island whatever within that is familar to me, and then I know my direction. So I don't really need to navigate. At the same time the terrrain makes it impssible to go in a straight line for more than a few meters at a time. So navigation by map here is for me just to find out where I am on the map, and find a path that will take me in the general direction of where I want to be...
So I do not get much map training. I could with a little good will of course...but the fun is lost.

I know my operational area very well but as a resource that can be called nationally I have to maintain my skills

[AL...]

All or at least most of my wanderings is up the Deeside( ye know where the Queen and her bunch like to go every year lol)
I have been walking and camping in the hills here most of my life and know every mountian, burn , and woods like the back of my hand. But I still take my map and compass with me .. Damn handy in the fog or in a whiteout. Tab 50mpasces and check baring tab 50 and check again . Keep that up till weather clears. (Or other choice is sit down and make a brew :D

Cheers
AL

[Silverback]

http://www.grough.co.uk/magazine/2012/08/18/police-repeat-appeal-to-hillwalkers-after-five-rescues-in-one-day

Sigh!

[AL...]

Aye !!

Cheers
AL

[FishyFolk]

I never tend to wander off the path up there. So navigation is limited to ensure I walk in the right direction on the path. I keep a map and compass with me, but 99,9% of the time it's never out of the
bag. And those times it used to be to show people I meet whee They are...

The only times I may get off the path was when I was hunting. But even then the terrain is so limited, that even when cant see any features, you are not really lost. Just walk off in any direction and you will end up on a road or by the sea.

I need to go to somewhere unfamiliar to train map and compass navigation skills, or have someone else make route I am supposed to follow. But even then, it will just be....oh there....and Iwalk there, without really navigating by map and compass.

Luckilly it is not rocket science. The hard part is keeping up with where you are on the map. Thats what a GPS is handy for. You get a fairly accurate location, and then you can just follow the map...

[FishyFolk]

Just read an incredible aricle. Turns out that these days, people call rescue services, and get this: Demand that a SAR helicopter comes and fly them off a mountain becasue they aRE TOO LAZY TO WALK DOWN ON THEIR OWN....

From my own experience all it requires when you are done in, is some food, hydration and an hours rest or two, and most people can walk down on their own...
Anyway, these demands are never met and pople get really p....off when "rescue" by chopper is denied.

[Silverback]

Just read an incredible aricle. Turns out that these days, people call rescue services, and get this: Demand that a SAR helicopter comes and fly them off a mountain becasue they aRE TOO LAZY TO WALK DOWN ON THEIR OWN....

true....there was an instance recently where MRT was called because the people concerned would be late for an appointment

[OakAshandThorn]

In my opinion, map and compass orienteering is an essential skill. And hey, it always helps to bring along someone who's familiar with the terrain.
Relying on GPS is rather foolish in my opinion. What are you going to do if your phone battery dies? What if you lose the signal from the satellite? Heck, what if the satellite goes blewie? People don't think these days, and yeah, it certainly is annoying. They always assume that their electronic devices will be there to help them through their troubles. Idiots...they need to wake up and smell the espresso.

[happybonzo]

What if you lose the signal from the satellite? Heck, what if the satellite goes blewie? People don't think these days, and yeah, it certainly is annoying.

Or the Americans turn the Satellite "off"...

[FishyFolk]

Or the Americans turn the Satellite "off"...

Here we did not have GPS signals for a week resently as the army jammed the signals during a NATO excersise.

Also, from my experience in certain contries where democracy is less developped, the first thing the governments stop, is public comms.
It will happen in our contries to in times of unrest. Just watch south europe when the lid blows off that pressure cooker....

[OakAshandThorn]

Yeah, or a solar storm could totally compromise it.

[Silverback]

or you just remember its a navigational aid and not a replacement for navigational ability and map/compass

[SimonB]

or you just remember its a navigational aid and not a replacement for navigational ability and map/compass


Totally agree...... Maps and compasses were around long before satelites and GPS...

In fact, I'd go as far as to say the stars were around before compasses...

[FishyFolk]

Totally agree...... Maps and compasses were around long before satelites and GPS...

In fact, I'd go as far as to say the stars were around before compasses...

Stars?
What are stars?
Are they related to that rumour that there is a shiny thing in the sky they call "the sun?"
Hogwash if you ask me. I only beleive what I can see....:happy-clapping:

[SimonB]

LOLOL... Well, It is difficult sometimes to see them with all the cloud cover we get here...

[Silverback]

Totally agree...... Maps and compasses were around long before satelites and GPS...

especially with the accuracy of modern mapping

[comanighttrain]

New-age walkers are getting ridiculous!

Now i say this but I am only 17. Most people nowadays use solely GPS as they are unable to use a map and compass. Recently I was up the Lomond Hills (Fife, Scotland) with friends camping and a German woman happened to stroll in. We were about half a click from any tracks so how on earth did she find us?

She was lost. She was using GPS...on her phone..

Now these are the time of people that phone emergency services to help them and it is ridiculous.
Never trust phone GPS OR leave the house without a map!


:guns:

LOL, I actually had someone follow me half way up a munro. I stopped for a cuppa and him and his mrs walked up and asked "mate is this the west highland way"

"eh....no pal...no it is not...."