diabetes and bushcraft/survival , any advice? [Archive]

jus_young

06-09-2012, 08:53 PM

I don't envy you on this one as my brother has diabetes after his pancreas packed up. He worked with me for some months after he was medically discharged from the infantry and it was a bit of a problem trying to maintain his blood suger levels. But realistically, is this a problem? You mention survival situations but it is unlikely that this will ever happen, and by no means should you practicing the skills ever be farcical. As with any suvival situation its about being as prepared as you can be, and in this case that includes your meds.

Myself, I can have an issue with hypoglycemia and my energy levels dropping right off if I do not ensure that I eat sufficiently. As such there are always a couple of tubes of glucose tabs in my pack if the need should arise when out and about just to stop the shakes till I can sit down and fill my face. Its rarely a problem these days as I tend to eat frequently when working but just can't seem to put on any body fat so they just exist as a backup when walking.

fish

06-09-2012, 09:03 PM

"cant seem to put on any body fat"

you lucky sod! lol

what are the glucose pills you mention? is there a specific brand?

jus_young

06-09-2012, 09:14 PM

Always used to use the Dextro tabs in the paper wrap, like a packet of sweets http://www.dextro-energy.com/produkte/stange/index.asp

More recently though, I have been using GlucoTabs http://www.glucotabs.co.uk/ as these come in a plastic tube that is more suitable for our inclement weather when out and about. They don't taste bad either :)

jbrown14

06-09-2012, 09:16 PM

Hi Fish,

My wife was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes when she was 19 and we were dating. That was about 17 years ago, I think...geez, we're getting old.

She used to carry glucose tablets with her. Here in the US she was getting the ReliOn tablets which are available at many grocery and drug stores (chemists.) The major drawback is that they can be a little pricey for what you get out of them, and for some years now (and especially since we had our kids) she carries a few packages of gummy, chewy fruit snack thingies that you might put in a child's lunch. Much cheaper alternative.

My dad is type 2 also. Take care of yourself, it's not the best diagnosis to live with, but it's not the end either.

All the best,

Josh

fish

06-09-2012, 09:18 PM

gluco tabs look like a winner,ive tried the dextro ones and as you say the wrappers are useless.

fish

06-09-2012, 09:22 PM

paulthefish2009

06-09-2012, 09:24 PM

Fish mate,talk to your doctor is my best advice, Sapper seems a all round sensible sort of bloke,see what he has to say. Paul

fish

06-09-2012, 09:29 PM

cheers paul.

jus_young

06-09-2012, 09:36 PM

They are even on the diabetes web site http://www.diabetes.co.uk/diabetic-products/glucotabs.html

Heres a supplier of different Gluco stuff http://www.medicalshop.co.uk/products/cat/managing-your-blood-glucose

fish

06-09-2012, 09:37 PM

top man,thanks.

Silverback

06-09-2012, 09:38 PM

Fish mate,talk to your doctor is my best advice, Sapper seems a all round sensible sort of bloke,see what he has to say. Paul

Thanks Paul........its the medic in me that does it ;-)

Fish, obviously I cant go into the whys and wherefores of IV glucose and things like that and neither should I to be honest. I have lots of mates who have perfectly normal 'outdoor' lives with diabetes, you just need to plan ahead, get your meds sorted and it will soon settle down.

Quick sugar boosts that are useful are full fat fizzy drinks, packet sugar and glucose tabs. I know people who use the energy gel sachets which are cheap and the new thing in some nurse circles is fresh orange juice (small individual cartons available). Doc can give you 40% dextrose in tubes called hypostop

http://www.chemist.net/Pharmacy/vitamins-energy-boost/glucogel/glucogel-hypostop-25g-x-3-pd-3700.html?utm_source=Froogle&utm_medium=marketing_medium&utm_campaign=froogle_feed

light easy to carry and taste like shit and best mixed with a drink like tea or juice

Whatever happens the quick sugar hit will only slow down your hypo as it gets use up really quickly so a long term sugar is needed to balance things out. Follow your dietary plan and maybe have a jam sandwich in reserve to settle things down after the initial sugar hit.

Lastly always check stuff out with your GP as they have your notes to hand and the rest of your med history

Whistle

06-09-2012, 10:03 PM

fish

06-09-2012, 10:09 PM

some really good advice guys,i was a bit worried about 'coming out' as a diabetic but it seems ime not alone in coping with this and loving the outdoors!

jus_young

06-09-2012, 10:17 PM

Hell mate, I think you will find that a lot of folks get a rekindling of the outdoor life because they have health problems of some kind. You get to appreciate things a little bit more.

SimonB

06-09-2012, 10:36 PM

I take it you are on metformin?...

I suggest you see your GP, or diabetic nurse, get expert advice....

But from my point of view,(Ex-Army medic, and St John Ambulance member, and Yorkshire ambulance Community responder), Make sure you carry your BM monitor, and something which will give a quick sugar boost should you start to feel off because of a Hypo.. Dextrose tablets from the chemist, A Mars bar, a bottle of original lucozade... something like that.. and should the SHTF, make sure those who you are out with knows you are diabetic, and make sure they know to give you something should you be in a position not to help yourself,obviously not try and shove a choccy bar down your throat if you can't swallow, likewise drink, and make sure you are able to get professional help if needed.... Ambulance, and/or MRT.. One tip I will give you, carry a sachet of sugar, and tell you fellow bushmen if things get bad, open the sachet, and tip it into your mouth under your tongue... it can be absorbed that way like asprin for someone having a suspect heart attack.

But to help the quick sugar rush, take something which will help long term to.. Lots of carbs which are slow release like a small bag of porrige oats...Or noodles, rice, etc.

Silverback

06-09-2012, 11:44 PM

some really good advice guys,i was a bit worried about 'coming out' as a diabetic but it seems ime not alone in coping with this and loving the outdoors!

Don't be, in fact the more people that know the better.....I know MRT members that are diabetics and these are type 1's. Hell Sir Steve redgrave is a diabetic,,,,,You're not alone and theres a great support network out there.

A med alert card or bracelet ie http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0057YF6IK/ref=asc_df_B0057YF6IK9550468?smid=A1V7981WBWEYSQ&tag=googlecouk06-21&linkCode=asn&creative=22218&creativeASIN=B0057YF6IK may be a good idea just in case you're found by a passing first aider, saves time for the Ambos/MRT/SAR too even though DEFG (dont ever forget glucose) is a standard part of the pt assessment process for those organisations

SimonB

07-09-2012, 12:11 AM

Don't be, in fact the more people that know the better.....I know MRT members that are diabetics and these are type 1's. Hell Sir Steve redgrave is a diabetic,,,,,You're not alone and theres a great support network out there.

A med alert card or bracelet ie http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0057YF6IK/ref=asc_df_B0057YF6IK9550468?smid=A1V7981WBWEYSQ&tag=googlecouk06-21&linkCode=asn&creative=22218&creativeASIN=B0057YF6IK may be a good idea just in case you're found by a passing first aider, saves time for the Ambos/MRT/SAR too even though DEFG (dont ever forget glucose) is a standard part of the pt assessment process for those organisations

If you get a medalert bracelet, all the better... But they work better in conjunction with the other suggested things to carry.... bearing in mind if you are stuck in the middle of nowhere, and would need a casevac via air ambulance, yes they are fast, but they will still need time to get there, likewise MRT/ Ambo road crews.. Anything that can help in the mean time will be beneficial.... Just make sure that there is a good signal from a mobile phone from whoever ther eis in the group.. I have found from personal experience that modern phones can have trouble picking up a signal up on the peak district, so now carry an old battered Nokia with a vodafone simcard, as this, combined with the old phone, does get a better reception.......

Proventurer

07-09-2012, 08:02 AM

Any one have experience of bushcraft with diabetes type 1 or 2? i was diagnosed earlier this year as being type 2 thankfully i don't need to inject and control it with tablets but that only stops the high sugars and doesn't stop the hypoglycemic episodes. This is a right pain in the butt if i am trying to forage and hunt only with no foods with me,in fact it is now impossible to do without some glucose tabs with me,that makes the survival seem a bit of a farce really,i mean in a real life situation ime a goner! lol
So what do fellow sufferers do? do you pack specific supplements?

If it didn't make things so chronic for us Fish I'd say welcome to the club, I'm type 2 and taking Glucophage tabs twice a day, the best thing I've done is to visit a young dietitian, she has introduced me to the world of Low G.I. foods and if you look hard enough it's amazing what you can find that you can stuff in your pockets to sustain you!
Now here's the rub, I'm out here in the Cape, South Africa and I was bowled over by how advanced the dietary community is out here along with Australia, possibly a little advanced of the UK.
What I'm trying to say is, there's life in the bush for us even as a Diabetics, see if you can find a young hot shot dietitian in your area who can work up a plan for you, based on your life style and by the way, I think you'll find that most of the food stuffs you forage are already low G.I. if not in the "FREE" points column.
I should mention that as a type 2 if you establish a diet based around Low G.I. foods you may well lessen your severity to a stage where the diabetes almost disappears, manage the problem, NOT THE SYMPTOMS!!!

paulthefish2009

07-09-2012, 09:29 AM

Fish,told you there would be some good advice, what a great community this is T^ .Paul

comanighttrain

07-09-2012, 09:58 AM

Pardon my ignorance good sirs,

Type 2 diabetes - does that mean Fish is incapable of endogenous glucose production via http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gluconeogenesis ?

I see high fat diets being bandied about as good for controlling blood glucose levels in diabetics but as I am not affected I haven't paid much attention to it...

fish

07-09-2012, 01:04 PM

didnt make head not tail of that link! lol

comanighttrain

07-09-2012, 01:29 PM

didnt make head not tail of that link! lol

haha, basically in the absence of eaten sugar or carbohydrate the body can make carbohydrate using fat/protein from food.

So like uhh the inuit who would have been eating fish/meat with not much veg and no grains. Their bodies would be making glucose so that it could continue to function.

Some people eat like that by choice (myself included) and some diabetics eat like because allegedly it helps somehow... No idea how or which type of diabetic it benefits though so absolutely do not quote me or take any action based on this :P

fish

07-09-2012, 05:25 PM

O.i.c!

AdrianRose

07-09-2012, 07:21 PM

Don't have cinnamon on your porridge when your out bushcrafting!!

Ade

jus_young

07-09-2012, 10:30 PM

Don't have cinnamon on your porridge when your out bushcrafting!!

Ade

:confused: Whats so bad about cinnamon? Its something I love but does it do something to your metabolism?

AdrianRose

07-09-2012, 10:48 PM

:confused: Whats so bad about cinnamon? Its something I love but does it do something to your metabolism?

Cinnamon has a strong effect on the bodies blood sugar level and it has huge fat burning properties, so eating it whilst camping will drop the blood sugar level.

Ade.

jus_young

07-09-2012, 11:04 PM

Oh b******s!!!! One thing I do love in the cold mornings when out is my cinnamon porridge. Mind you, I do have it loaded up with strawberry flakes and golden syrup so maybe one offsets the other!

NeedABrew

08-09-2012, 10:01 PM

Putting my .02 in as an (awkward) type 1.5 diabetic.

I have slow onset type 1 - I have managed for many years to live on exercise and type 2 meds but as my pancreas slowly dies off I think it's about time to get on the insulin. This is something that can also happen to type 2's - As your pancreas tries to produce more insulin to combat the low uptake it can eventually burn itself out.

It therefore goes without saying that the better you look after yourself the longer it will be before you hit any complications.

Now as far as the outdoors go - The more you exercise the better your insulin sensitivity is (for the duration of exercise and for an amount of time afterwards). This is useful to know if you are on a long walk as you will find that you can risk a few more carbs than usual to fuel your journey.

As your body gets used to the strange things happening you will probably find being hungry becomes a lot easier.

Now - you mention glucose tablets - well unless you are on certain medications to increase your insulin levels (Gliclazide for example) then you probably don't need them. Meds such as Metformin increase our insulin sensitivity and as such won't cause a crash severe enough to make us have a hypo.

If you use glucose you still cause a high and subsequent low in blood glucose only now you are more susceptible to 'feeling' it.

Much better to graze slowly on low glycemic index carbs. These will keep your average blood glucose level high enough for you to feel right, but not cause any spikes.

Vinegar (any sort) with every meal helps reduce the glycemic load of any carbs you have with that meal. This is very useful and good for your long term health. It makes no difference if you swallow a little with some water before you eat or cook it into the food (Good excuse for a beef curry!).

Do you have a test kit? I would strongly suspect that when you think you are crashing you are actually just really hungry and still a way off sparking out. Test test test! Write down results and how you were feeling at the time. Learn about how your body reacts. That way, when you are out in the wilds and start wondering if you should be reaching for the glucose you will actually *know* whether you need to or not.

As far as sleeping hungry goes - Nothing to worry about for a T2 here. Your liver, if it so desires, can dump glucose into your blood stream while you sleep. This is the reason many T2's wake up way over the limit despite having gone to bed having eaten only protein.

To sum up, increased insulin levels are the only way to lower your blood glucose sufficiently for things to get dangerous. Hunger is actually good. We just feel it a bit more than most, but honestly, when you get used to it, it's not so bad.

fish

08-09-2012, 10:16 PM

wow a lot to take in,the doc or the nurse never said any of this! what are low glycemic index carbs?

NeedABrew

08-09-2012, 10:38 PM

wow a lot to take in,the doc or the nurse never said any of this! what are low glycemic index carbs?

Ha they never do!

Ok - Glycemic index or GI...

All carbs have an associated GI. It is a measure of how fast the food you eat gets converted to glucose and dumped into your blood.

Examples to clear things up...

I'll use 15g servings as an example here - 15g is a serving of carbs for a diabetic. Weigh it out - it's not much!

Sugars, including glucose etc (refined, simple carbohydrates) are very high GI. They are completely assimilated by the body in minutes and will hit your blood in their entirety in about the same time. So, if you consume 15g of sugar (3tsp) the lot will be in your blood 5 minutes later. This will cause you to display a spike on a BG meter of probably 20+ (way too high!).

Now, take the equivalent 15g of blueberries which are a very low GI fruit. These will take around 3 hours to get into your blood (spiking at about 30 minutes in). A serving won't take you above maybe a 10 score.

So blueberries will keep your blood glucose more level, for much longer, and cause far less long term physical damage than sugar. Does that make sense?

You (we!) are dealing with a long term degenerative condition - You can go out right now and eat a dozen mars bars. You will wake up tomorrow and notice absolutely no difference in your body. However you will have done a little damage. a single tiny blood vessel in your eye may have been blocked and died never to return. But thats ok you have millions of blood vessels in your eyes right? Well yes but - every time you are naughty you kill a few. The better you eat, the better you control this, the less chance that you will go blind.

Same with your feet - look after them ALWAYS! Little nerve endings die, you lose feeling, you cut yourself and don't notice. The wound gets septic and you develop gangrene which spreads up your leg in the bone. The surgeons take your leg off but too late it's in your hip. 6 weeks after the initial cut you die. It happened to a good friend of mine.

This is absolutely NOT a joke but not meant to alarm you, rather to stress how utterly important getting everything right is. A cheat once in a while is ok - you will crack up if you eat perfectly all the time, but keep it to a minimum. Birthday cake contains no carbs. Just for the day, if you see what I mean?

comanighttrain

08-09-2012, 10:59 PM

O.i.c!

Oi oi...google turned up something

http://www.health24.com/news/Diabetes/1-904,74419.asp

NeedABrew

08-09-2012, 11:07 PM

Oi oi...google turned up something

http://www.health24.com/news/Diabetes/1-904,74419.asp

I agree with this - Or rather I specifically advocate a low carb diet. If we eat low carb we have to get our calories from somewhere else and fat is a brilliant source.

I weigh in at around 210lbs which requires 3150 calories per day to maintain my weight (which I want to keep as it's all muscle, I have visible abs etc.) That's quite a bit of food. If I make it all up with carbs I am damaging myself badly due to BG overload. Protein is expensive and hard to consume that many calories, so fat makes up a good 20%+ of my daily diet. My cholesterol level was 4.9 last test. Dietary fat doesn't really affect these figures.

comanighttrain

08-09-2012, 11:11 PM

GalaxyRider

12-09-2012, 06:54 PM

I agree with this - Or rather I specifically advocate a low carb diet. If we eat low carb we have to get our calories from somewhere else and fat is a brilliant source.

I weigh in at around 210lbs which requires 3150 calories per day to maintain my weight (which I want to keep as it's all muscle, I have visible abs etc.) That's quite a bit of food. If I make it all up with carbs I am damaging myself badly due to BG overload. Protein is expensive and hard to consume that many calories, so fat makes up a good 20%+ of my daily diet. My cholesterol level was 4.9 last test. Dietary fat doesn't really affect these figures.

2500-2800 is fine to maintain your weight.

I hate to rain on your parade, but you are not all muscle, if you were you would die very quickly. You are quite a lot of fat as well, and tissue, and organs, and some muscle. If you are 'all muscle', and 210lb, you won't be so hot on the endurance stuff, as your body would have to get all it's power and energy from your muscles, which will then quickly decide between power/energy and staying alive, and guess which one it will choose.

Having visible abs is absolutely no indication of muscle mass or strength, most anorexic people have visible abs, abs are merely the very top layer of abdominal muscle, the vast, nay overwhelming mass of core abdominal muscle would only ever be seen by a surgeon. A six-pack means knack all in strength and muscle terms, it's purely cosmetic.

Finally, a low anything diet is not a good idea. All diets should consist of a broad range of all food groups, carbs, protein, fat, sugars all of them.

Check this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJvAL-iiLnQ) video out, it makes understanding the role of sugar and it's role in energy production a little easier. It also explains why we can't, and shouldn't strive to be, all muscle.

Silverback

12-09-2012, 07:23 PM

A six-pack means knack all in strength and muscle terms, it's purely cosmetic.

Finally, a low anything diet is not a good idea. All diets should consist of a broad range of all food groups, carbs, protein, fat, sugars all of them.

It also explains why we can't, and shouldn't strive to be, all muscle.

amen !!

NeedABrew

12-09-2012, 08:12 PM

Ok - Didn't realise I had to be so specific given we are on a bushcraft site rather than a fitness forum - I weigh in at 210lbs at 10% body fat (measured professionally using a 7 point calliper test) which gives me 21lbs of fat leaving 189lbs of muscle, skeleton, and organs. I squat 180Kg for reps (Usually 5 x 5) and box deadlift 250Kg for 5 x 3.

2500 - 2800 calories is NOT fine to maintain my body weight, my food diary and training diary graphed against my weight is proof of that.

Finally a low anything diet is *sometimes* required due to health reasons. I didn't say *no* carbs, just reduced. As a whole in the western world we eat an average of too many carbs every day. As another example, my own mum who is in the more advanced stages of Parkinsons disease MUST have a very low protein diet. Literally anything more than about an egg white in any one meal and she can no longer move for several hours and her blood levels show dangerous levels of various hormones.

On the whole, yes a balanced diet is to be strived for, but there are those of us with certain conditions that are better off not following those guidelines.

NeedABrew

12-09-2012, 08:32 PM

Having visible abs is absolutely no indication of muscle mass or strength When combined with the knowledge of overall body weight we can actually use visible abs as an indication of muscle mass. Given skeletal structure and weight doesn't actually vary all that much adult to adult, that 210lbs needs to be made up with something - you think my liver weight 65lbs? I never actually mentioned strength anywhere but I do agree on that point that visibly large muscle mass doesn't mean strength. Hypertrophic workouts are great for laying down large amounts of muscle mass but certainly don't add strength to the degree that many would assume goes with such size.

But then we aren't talking about strength, we are talking about controlling blood glucose levels so as for them not to be damaging to individuals who are susceptible to such levels. I merely brought my own weight etc into the conversation to highlight where I get my own extra calories from without damaging myself by consuming carbs.

comanighttrain

12-09-2012, 09:22 PM

[QUOTE=GalaxyRider;53785
Finally, a low anything diet is not a good idea. All diets should consist of a broad range of all food groups, carbs, protein, fat, sugars all of them.[/QUOTE]

(If your not up for friendly debate, feel free to ignore)

On what information are you basing this assertion? I would disagree.

fish

12-09-2012, 09:37 PM

http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/basic/smileyvault-popcorn.gif (http://www.smileyvault.com/)

NeedABrew

12-09-2012, 09:41 PM

http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/basic/smileyvault-popcorn.gif (http://www.smileyvault.com/)

lmao :-)

GalaxyRider

12-09-2012, 09:52 PM

(If your not up for friendly debate, feel free to ignore)

On what information are you basing this assertion? I would disagree.

What food group are you suggesting we remove?

Carbs- can be converted more readily into glucose, the form of sugar that's transported and used by the body
Protein- is the building block of all life and is essential for the growth of cells and tissue repair
Fats- provide a source of concentrated energy as well as the fat-soluble vitamins A, D, E and K

So simply put, do you want to have less energy, less immunity or less bone density/red blood cells/eyesight/nerve function but more cholesterol?

Let me know, and then we can begin our friendly debate.

GalaxyRider

12-09-2012, 09:52 PM

http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/basic/smileyvault-popcorn.gif (http://www.smileyvault.com/)

Oi you, you're diabetic, cut out the popcorn

NeedABrew

12-09-2012, 09:55 PM

Oi you, you're diabetic, cut out the popcorn

Stop it! I just had coffee run down my nose! lol

fish

12-09-2012, 09:57 PM

its ok its tesco value popcorn,little sugar and no popcorn......

NeedABrew

12-09-2012, 10:06 PM

Aww now, I'm only getting into the posting habit on here just recently. I don't want to fall out about this. I didn't mean to suggest you had a 65lb liver.

Maybe you're just dense?

Ha no worries mate - Dense? I've been called worse... ;-)

I am actually a fairly hefty chap and very strong. I wouldn't say my fitness levels are up to much these days compared to a few years back but then I can still summit Helvellyn while most people are still coughing up a lung at the hole in the wall.

Must make a point about cutting out a food group - Yup carbs can go (mostly).

Yes indeed we are going to have less energy, hence my own much reduced abilities (although I do find medium-chain triglycerides a very usable alternative) but the important bit is to realise that even when we (diabetics) do eat carbs we do not utilise many of the nutrients we ingest). What happens to the rest is the scary bit. The molecules of glucose in our blood are too big to fit down many of our smaller blood vessels. When these blood vessels get blocked they die and are not replaced. These blood vessels feed nerve endings too.

So it becomes a play off - Lower energy or go blind (eyes are usually the first to go).

I have no fear of death, those who know me well will understand that, but blindness - scares the cr*p out of me. I'll low carb and have less energy thank you very much :-)

GalaxyRider

12-09-2012, 10:10 PM

Ha no worries mate - Dense? I've been called worse... ;-)

I am actually a fairly hefty chap and very strong. I wouldn't say my fitness levels are up to much these days compared to a few years back but then I can still summit Helvellyn while most people are still coughing up a lung at the hole in the wall.

Must make a point about cutting out a food group - Yup carbs can go (mostly).

Yes indeed we are going to have less energy, hence my own much reduced abilities (although I do find medium-chain triglycerides a very usable alternative) but the important bit is to realise that even when we (diabetics) do eat carbs we do not utilise many of the nutrients we ingest). What happens to the rest is the scary bit. The molecules of glucose in our blood are too big to fit down many of our smaller blood vessels. When these blood vessels get blocked they die and are not replaced. These blood vessels feed nerve endings too.

So it becomes a play off - Lower energy or go blind (eyes are usually the first to go).

I have no fear of death, those who know me well will understand that, but blindness - scares the cr*p out of me. I'll low carb and have less energy thank you very much :-)

Sorry mate, I felt that post was both disrespectful and rude, so I deleted it.

I would like to apologise if it seemed harsh.

NeedABrew

12-09-2012, 10:10 PM

its ok its tesco value popcorn,little sugar and no popcorn......

Holland & Barret 1Kg popcorn kernals £1.50. Little oil in the bottom of a heavy saucepan, roughly 1cm of kernals, high heat with the lid on the pan. Shake every now and then while they pop. Sprinkle with a little parmesan cheese.

NeedABrew

12-09-2012, 10:12 PM

Sorry mate, I felt that post was both disrespectful and rude, so I deleted it.

I would like to apologise if it seemed harsh.

Lol thought it was rather funny myself ;-) No worries pal

comanighttrain

12-09-2012, 10:47 PM

What food group are you suggesting we remove?

Carbs- can be converted more readily into glucose, the form of sugar that's transported and used by the body

Protein- is the building block of all life and is essential for the growth of cells and tissue repair

Fats- provide a source of concentrated energy as well as the fat-soluble vitamins A, D, E and K

So simply put, do you want to have less energy, less immunity or less bone density/red blood cells/eyesight/nerve function but more cholesterol?

Let me know, and then we can begin our friendly debate.

Carbs - completely non-essential as far as i can tell, even with zero carb intake the body can still function perfectly well

Protein - no argument there

Fats - yeah - you mentioned cholesterol though...why?

NeedABrew

12-09-2012, 10:57 PM

Fats - yeah - you mentioned cholesterol though...why?

Most people assume that dietary fat causes increased cholesterol levels. We of course know this to be untrue but Glaxosmithkline - The biggest manufacturer of statins in the world, try constantly to tell us otherwise....

Silverback

12-09-2012, 11:51 PM

Glaxosmithkline -

the manufacturer of paracetamoxyfrusebendroneomycin ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlmEc8rd_Nw

NeedABrew

13-09-2012, 12:28 AM

the manufacturer of paracetamoxyfrusebendroneomycin ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlmEc8rd_Nw

That sir, is brilliant!! Lolololol

GalaxyRider

13-09-2012, 08:56 AM

Carbs - completely non-essential as far as i can tell, even with zero carb intake the body can still function perfectly well

Protein - no argument there

Fats - yeah - you mentioned cholesterol though...why?

Have you ever used any energy in your life? If so, it came from a carbohydrate.

If you are advocating a zero carb diet, then remember one simple thing, you are not an Innuit as you quoted earlier. Are you? Races across the globe have evolved to deal with local dietry conditions, so your Innuit example would work, South Asians suffer way more heart disease when exposed to a Western diet than native Westerners, Native Australians suffer disproportinate tooth and gum disease.

I mention cholesterol not from a dietry point of view, but from the point of view that cholesterol is a circulating fat, and too much of the wrong sort (LDL) can be harmful. Vitamin C helps in the reduction of this.

comanighttrain

13-09-2012, 09:57 AM

Have you ever used any energy in your life? If so, it came from a carbohydrate.

If you are advocating a zero carb diet, then remember one simple thing, you are not an Innuit as you quoted earlier. Are you? Races across the globe have evolved to deal with local dietry conditions, so your Innuit example would work, South Asians suffer way more heart disease when exposed to a Western diet than native Westerners, Native Australians suffer disproportinate tooth and gum disease.

I mention cholesterol not from a dietry point of view, but from the point of view that cholesterol is a circulating fat, and too much of the wrong sort (LDL) can be harmful. Vitamin C helps in the reduction of this.

Good Morning :D

Are you saying that all my energy has come from external (consumed) carbohydrate?

So if I (White, Eurasian Origin) took on an inuit style diet what would you suppose the health effects might be?

Also when you say "Western Diet", in the studies which these conclusions were gained from what was the definition of this? I've found quite often that when they say "western diet" it's not clearly defined exactly what that means.

Also what increases LDL Cholesterol?

GalaxyRider

13-09-2012, 10:59 AM

Good Morning :D

Are you saying that all my energy has come from external (consumed) carbohydrate?

So if I (White, Eurasian Origin) took on an inuit style diet what would you suppose the health effects might be?

Also when you say "Western Diet", in the studies which these conclusions were gained from what was the definition of this? I've found quite often that when they say "western diet" it's not clearly defined exactly what that means.

Also what increases LDL Cholesterol?

Well, clearly I do not stand over you and watch you eat, so I am not saying that. What I am saying is that your bodies energy is carbohydrate. So, even if you eschew all carbohydrate intake, your body still uses other foods to synthesise carbohydrate, but this is not so ideal. So, even if you consume a largely carbohydrate free diet, it doesn't matter, your body produces it's own. So what is the point of consuming extra protein, when you can have a nice bowl of porridge in the morning?

Here is a brief list of carbohydrate containing foods.

Cereal, Grains and Bread, Bagels, White bread, Whole wheat bread, White rice, Wheat bran, Muesli, Buckwheat, Barley, Corn, Brown Rice, Shredded wheat, Oatmeal, Spaghetti, Pasta, Muffins, Fruits, Apricot, Dates, Blueberry, Banana, Fig, Grapes, Apple, Orange, Pear, Pineapple, Strawberry, Watermelon, Raisins, Beans, Pulses, Legumes, Chickpeas, White beans, Black-eyed peas, Green peas, Refried beans, Garbanzo beans, Navy beans, Kidney beans, Lentils, Root Vegetables, Potato, Sweet Potato, Yams, Carrot, Radish, Dairy Products, Low-fat milk, Low fat plain yogurt, Chocolate milk, Skimmed milk, Confectionery, Chocolates, Candies, Cookies, Pastries, Cakes

Now a number of items on that list contain high protein and high carbohydrate, as do many other foodstuffs.

Enjoy a nicely balanced diet, anything else is just a fad. We all know of course what happened to Mr Atkins, the propogator of the low carb-high protein diet, don't we?

Jacket potato anyone?

comanighttrain

13-09-2012, 11:22 AM

Well, clearly I do not stand over you and watch you eat, so I am not saying that. What I am saying is that your bodies energy is carbohydrate. So, even if you eschew all carbohydrate intake, your body still uses other foods to synthesise carbohydrate, but this is not so ideal. So, even if you consume a largely carbohydrate free diet, it doesn't matter, your body produces it's own. So what is the point of consuming extra protein, when you can have a nice bowl of porridge in the morning?

Why is this not so ideal? From what perspective? For us in Britain there are few high calorie high carb natural food sources - before agriculture our ancestors would have had to rely on more fat from hunting and fishing. Not entirely obviously - I'd imagine they'd have eaten whatever they could from wherever they could get it.

To begin my counter arguments it has been shown that a carbohydrate diet has been positively linked to hormone related illnesses such a diabetes. The reason for this as I understand it is that by having a high carb diet your blood sugar is constantly fluctuating with the ebb and flow of food intake and insulin release which puts a lot more stress on the pancreas. One point on health for the high fat approach is that this ebb and flow is far reduced,

Enjoy a nicely balanced diet, anything else is just a fad. We all know of course what happened to Mr Atkins, the propogator of the low carb-high protein diet, don't we?

Jacket potato anyone?

Atkins heart attack : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Atkins_%28nutritionist%29#Heart_attack

"despite the obvious irony, I believe there is a total disconnect between [Atkins'] cardiac arrest and the health approach he popularizes"

Also, the Atkins diet is not a true low carb diet as i recall it involves bringing people back onto eating carbs?

Lastly. Jacket Potatoes are gross, who wants a nice fatty cut of steak?

Silverback

13-09-2012, 12:28 PM

Atkins heart attack : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Atkins_%28nutritionist%29#Heart_attack

Dave you CANT quote wiki as a reliable source, its just not done

food for thought - I tend to trust the medics, they are generally right

"The Chair of Harvard's nutrition department went on record before a 1973 U.S. Senate Select Committee investigating fad diets: "The Atkins Diet is nonsense... Any book that recommends unlimited amounts of meat, butter, and eggs, as this one does, in my opinion is dangerous. The author who makes the suggestion is guilty of malpractice."

The Chair of the American Medical Association's Council on Food and Nutrition testified before the Senate Subcommittee as to why the AMA felt they had to formally publish an official condemnation of the Atkins Diet: "A careful scientific appraisal was carried out by several council and staff members, aided by outside consultants. It became apparent that the [Atkins] diet as recommended poses a serious threat to health."

The problem for Atkins, though, is that the National Academy of Sciences, the most prestigious scientific body in the United States, agrees with the AMA and the ADA in opposing the Atkins Diet.[13] So does the American Cancer Society;[14] and the American Heart Association;[15] and the Cleveland Clinic;[16] and Johns Hopkins;[17] and the American Kidney Fund;[18] and the American College of Sports Medicine;[19] and the National Institutes of Health.

A 2003 review of Atkins "theories" in the Journal of the American College of Nutrition concluded: "When properly evaluated, the theories and arguments of popular low carbohydrate diet books... rely on poorly controlled, non-peer-reviewed studies, anecdotes and non-science rhetoric.

Atkins' personal physician and cardiologist, Dr. Patrick Fratellone, confirmed this assertion, saying "We have been treating this condition, cardiomyopathy, for almost two years. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Atkins_(nutritionist)#Heart_attack

High fat diet induced diabetic cardiomyopathy.
Dirkx E, Schwenk RW, Glatz JF, Luiken JJ, van Eys GJ.
Source Department of Molecular Genetics, Cardiovascular Research Institute Maastricht (CARIM), Maastricht University, P.O. Box 616, 6200 MD Maastricht, The Netherlands. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21571515

comanighttrain

13-09-2012, 12:40 PM

Dave you CANT quote wiki as a reliable source, its just not done

food for thought - I tend to trust the medics, they are generally right

"The Chair of Harvard's nutrition department went on record before a 1973 U.S. Senate Select Committee investigating fad diets: "The Atkins Diet is nonsense... Any book that recommends unlimited amounts of meat, butter, and eggs, as this one does, in my opinion is dangerous. The author who makes the suggestion is guilty of malpractice."

The Chair of the American Medical Association's Council on Food and Nutrition testified before the Senate Subcommittee as to why the AMA felt they had to formally publish an official condemnation of the Atkins Diet: "A careful scientific appraisal was carried out by several council and staff members, aided by outside consultants. It became apparent that the [Atkins] diet as recommended poses a serious threat to health."

The problem for Atkins, though, is that the National Academy of Sciences, the most prestigious scientific body in the United States, agrees with the AMA and the ADA in opposing the Atkins Diet.[13] So does the American Cancer Society;[14] and the American Heart Association;[15] and the Cleveland Clinic;[16] and Johns Hopkins;[17] and the American Kidney Fund;[18] and the American College of Sports Medicine;[19] and the National Institutes of Health.

A 2003 review of Atkins "theories" in the Journal of the American College of Nutrition concluded: "When properly evaluated, the theories and arguments of popular low carbohydrate diet books... rely on poorly controlled, non-peer-reviewed studies, anecdotes and non-science rhetoric.

I'll get back on this later - there is now a significant body of evidence which suggests otherwise.

You can follow a trail of breadcrumbs here if you are bored... I know your waiting about at the moment :P

http://community.myprotein.com/diet-nutrition/24776-how-carbs-insulin-make-you-fat-ill.html

Silverback

13-09-2012, 12:50 PM

Dave I wasnt meaning to be rude not to you anyway just dissin wiki as a reliable source of accurate info

Silverback

13-09-2012, 01:03 PM

I

http://community.myprotein.com/diet-nutrition/24776-how-carbs-insulin-make-you-fat-ill.html

Mmm quick scan reveals a link to a site thats propagated with people whom are very body image conscious and the one proponent on there is Nu who seems to have a vested interest in the diet and backs it up occasionally with wiki links the footnote to his posts are "Disclaimer: All posts on these forums are for information and discussion purposes only and solely the views of the forum member who posted. No posts constitute or replace medical advice. Any information should be considered in regard to specific circumstances. All advice is followed at your own risk and should be followed up with your own research or doctors advice"

I know quite a famous bodybuilder, I used to train at the same gym..... he was as weak as a kitten most of the time particularly before a comp as well as being permanently orange :D

Anyway back on topic.......the OP needs to seek the advice of his Diabetes Clinic, GP and find out what works best for him

comanighttrain

13-09-2012, 01:16 PM

Mmm quick scan reveals a link to a site thats propagated with people whom are very body image conscious and the one proponent on there is Nu who seems to have a vested interest in the diet and backs it up occasionally

He does actually back it up with a lot of medical journals as well, its a real hefty read though... I'm only half up on it!

Also http://www.marksdailyapple.com is a good read

comanighttrain

13-09-2012, 01:17 PM

Dave I wasnt meaning to be rude not to you anyway just dissin wiki as a reliable source of accurate info

I know dude - was hoping to save the big guns for later though ;)

Silverback

13-09-2012, 01:39 PM

I know dude - was hoping to save the big guns for later though ;)

See there you go with muscles and body image again ;)

My body works for what I want it to do - surprisingly. I may not be adonis, and I may disgust waif like skinny wretches who havent the strength to pick their noses. Come the apocalypse I'll just eat them anyway...and who cares if I become a burden on the NHS bloody governments had its pound of flesh out of me, its time I got something back ;);)

Marvell

13-09-2012, 01:39 PM

Any one have experience of bushcraft with diabetes type 1 or 2?

I ran a course once where a student predeclared that she was an insulin dependant diabetic. She had had the condition for some 20 years and was perfectly capable of managing it in day to day life. However, the course was thin on food and potentially high, or at least irregular, on energy use. I sought advice from a doctor friend of mine gave her the following conditions:

1) bring your own extra food

This was largely because I didn't know her routine and the course food was to come quite late in the first day. She brought a whopping bag of nuts, raisins and smarties which she munched throughout the day.

2) tell people

Since the symptoms of hyper and hypoglycaemia are not well know, I felt it important that her condition was declared up front to her team to that they would be able to make an informed decisions about what was going on. Also testing and injecting could have been misconstrued, so better to get it out in the open.

3) be mindful of energy use

Exertion and cold would were a factor and would break her normal routine. She also monitored her blood sugar more often.

4) don't go off alone

Clearly, if an episode were to occur alone in the woods with elements of confusion or phasing, let alone collapse, it was important to be locatable at all time.

5) if it's too much ...

Then it was time to go home and be safe.

These conditions were accepted gladly and everyone on the course got on with it all.

The thing that surprised her most was how badly she managed. Having spent 20 years with an regular energy use, eating and medication routine, this break from that was very difficult for her. I noticed her phasing in and out during lectures (and no that was nothing to do with my voice :P ) and when I asked her about it, she'd not noticed or had simply let it happen and not mention it. There was a lot of "when did you last do a check", "I'm not sure" and we were almost at the stage of saying it was dangerous for her to stay.

At this point, the people on the course really stepped up. Without exception, they all wanted her to stay and accepted and had developed a routine of casual/covert monitoring of her state with a regimen questioning her and informing me. I'd had nothing to do with this, it was all them. This was extremely touching to her and having accepted this additional help, we all got on with the course. She also adjusted her food and medication timetable as she went on.

At the end of the course, she old me that she had learnt a great deal about the condition that she'd had for many years and I think that the other participants had not only recognised that it would be sad for her to leave, but that she still made a valid contribution to the team, even though it had to be adjusted to suit her. The whole experience taught everyone something, including me.

So no, in a survival situation, I don't think you're all out of luck unless there is no insulin at all. However, I suspect that you carry a number of days supply.

FYI: Although I have advanced first aid and casualty care training, I am not a medical practitioner, so please take this as anecdotal rather advice.

fish

13-09-2012, 01:54 PM

this thread has become just an argument and not really about the original topic,time to lock it mods?

Silverback

13-09-2012, 01:57 PM

this thread has become just an argument and not really about the original topic,time to lock it mods?

apart from Steves very relevant post.......and I did try to swing it back round

fish

13-09-2012, 02:08 PM

i know mate but .....well just look at it.

comanighttrain

13-09-2012, 02:13 PM

this thread has become just an argument and not really about the original topic,time to lock it mods?

We're not arguing - just discussing :)

fair point though, mods could also just move to own topic?

Silverback

13-09-2012, 02:49 PM

i know mate but .....well just look at it.

Steve has put it back on track Fish. Too much useful info to lock it now. Happy to PM you with some anecdotal and clinical evidence if you want

Silverback

13-09-2012, 05:06 PM

Fish heres one for you which you may find useful. Diabetes can predispose a person to Hypothermia. I was working on something this afternoon about hypothermia which triggered the thought in my head.

I was also kick started to thinking of the other problems hypothermia could cause you for instance inducing a hypo through exhaustion as your body attempts to thermoregulate. Impaired control of peripheral vasculature through autonomic dysfunction can also play a part in diabetic persons.

Hypoglycaemia alone can predispose to hypothermia, and diabetic ketoacidosis also needs to be considered as a precipitating cause of hypothermic episodes, even if they are not clinically apparent. Diabetes itself may also be a factor which increases the likelihood of accidental hypothermia, particularly in the context of malnutrition.

We loose heat through conduction, convection, respiration and radiation, perspiration and evaporation.

We lose heat into the ground 4 x faster than into air, we lose heat into water 25 times faster and into moving water 100 x faster.

http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/25/11/2108.full

http://www.christopherimray.co.uk/highaltitudemedicine/frostbite.htm

Hope this helps

David_JAFO

15-10-2012, 04:33 PM

hello,
Include in your Survival Kit 'Your Meds' & let everyman & his dog who's out
with you know, carry an I.D card/Bracelet/Dog Tags. I have a .pdf doc somewhere or I'll
have to contact who I last sent a copy to on the subject of Bushcraft & Health Matters.
This contained info' on a wide variety of issues which may have been of interest to you.
You can also buy Lucozade Powder in a tub serves 10, make up sachets or carry the tub
with you in your kit. Just a suggestion.
Regards
David

Fish mate,talk to your doctor is my best advice,
Sapper seems a all round sensible sort of bloke,see what he has to say. Paul

Bushdoctor

10-11-2012, 03:47 PM

Hi Guys.
I sugest you ask your GP for some Hypo-stop highly concetrated glucose gel in a sealed soft plastic tube for emergency use only. Easy to pack and last indefinatley.
Should raise your blood sugar level in about 10 mins.
Cheers. Doc.

fish

10-11-2012, 04:43 PM

ive been meaning to get some of that.

nilo52

17-02-2013, 11:58 PM

Same story for my wife as well. good info
Hi Fish,

My wife was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes when she was 19 and we were dating. That was about 17 years ago, I think...geez, we're getting old.

She used to carry glucose tablets with her. Here in the US she was getting the ReliOn tablets which are available at many grocery and drug stores (chemists.) The major drawback is that they can be a little pricey for what you get out of them, and for some years now (and especially since we had our kids) she carries a few packages of gummy, chewy fruit snack thingies that you might put in a child's lunch. Much cheaper alternative.

My dad is type 2 also. Take care of yourself, it's not the best diagnosis to live with, but it's not the end either.

All the best,

Josh

nilo52

18-02-2013, 12:05 AM

My wife is diabetic also. It is unlikely when foraging to get too much sugar. Protein is O.K, carbohydrates not so good. In the old days they would deliberately starve patients. If you use Insulin, always carry an Insulin pen. They are temperature stable and shelf life is good. The other posts are a good source of good information for sure ! . nilo52

Bushdoctor

18-02-2013, 04:48 PM

Insulin pen with preloaded cartridges is a great improvement on the old way when you had to mix units of several different types of insulin, so easy to make mistakes. With the pen it is easy to keep doses
accurate and if necessary to accuratley adjust doseages. If you keep the cartridges in the fridge until you need to use them it will extend the shelf life, most medications will last longer than the printed
use by date if kept in the fridge (unless specifically stated do not fridge).Usefull in a survival situation.
Cheers
Doc.

Silverback

18-02-2013, 04:54 PM

insulin pump even better....

Bushdoctor

18-02-2013, 05:30 PM

Can be at times,depends on the individual, just shows that diabetes is not the end of the world, plenty of options.

Silverback

18-02-2013, 05:34 PM

Im fortunate that Im not in a position to need any for now. I do however carry Glucogel and Glucagon and the skill to use it as part of my medikit so can help others when needed

jbrown14

19-02-2013, 12:49 PM

insulin pump even better....

Yup. My wife has been using a pump for some years now, and just a couple of years ago she began using the real-time blood sugar monitoring sensor that's inserted subcutaneously (well, the needle portion is...) She still spot checks, but the sensor combined with the pump give her a lot more control, and also give her doctor a great idea as to her highs and lows and in-betweens.

Josh

SilverBinder

16-06-2013, 10:21 PM

I am a diabetic type 2. What do I do in the field? One as I use insulin in two forms I carry enough pen, alcohol swabs, and needles for the length of my stay. It is important to keep up with your meds. I also carry hard candy or gluco tabs in ziplock bags as a part of my EDC. My test kit is also with me all the time.

Diet is very important. I have reduced my use of sugar to almost none and I use only unprocessed sugar at that. Salt too has been reduced and I use only sea salt. Oils for cooking or salads - olive oil only. Most of the bulk of your diet must change from carbs to veg. Protein is okay but a portion the sizes of a deck of cards (not those huge Tarot things twit!) Carbs keep to brown rice or whole grain types but you can have a golf ball sized portion with each meal. None of those nasty Ramen Noodle packs. You GP or nurse will surely give you this advice, I try to eat 4 or 5 small meals a day rather than three larger meals. Breakfast is a good time for a larger meal. I still eat oatmeal but the steel cut type. Cinamon is an excellent spice for diabetics because it does reduce the blood glucose levels. I even put it in my coffee! Wild edibles and game are excellent source of nutrition. I try to make the bulk of my diet in the field fish, fowl, or cattail. Squirrel and rabbit mixed with the occasional turtle or snake are good as well and for the most part legal.

If you start feeling weak take a blood test. (LOL get's you off your feet!) Then respond to the test: sugar tabs or an injection of insulin. Rehydrate your body!!!!!!!!!!

I'm going to check on the real time glucose monitor when I go back to my doctor. I don't like hangy bits that could get pulled out in a survival situation which is why I don't wear a pump!

The best thing for use fat, old rejects is to loose that weight. I feel a hundred percent better this year than last. I will feel a 100% better next year. Get out in the dirt and lose that weight!

Silverback

16-06-2013, 10:34 PM

I am a diabetic type 2. What do I do in the field? One as I use insulin in two forms I carry enough pen, alcohol swabs, and needles for the length of my stay.

To clarify...(or even confuse)....for those that dont already know

Type 2 diabetes occurs when the body doesn't produce enough insulin to function properly, or the body’s cells don't react to insulin. This is known as insulin resistance.Type 2 diabetes is far more common than type 1 diabetes, which occurs when the body doesn't produce any insulin at all. As we are in the UK, its worth knowing that about 90% of all adults with diabetes have type 2 diabetes.

Type 1 diabetes is often referred to as insulin-dependent diabetes. It is also sometimes known as juvenile diabetes or early-onset diabetes because it often develops before the age of 40, usually during the teenage years. In type 1 diabetes, the pancreas does not produce any insulin.