The law and our tools.

[comanighttrain]

Following the Leatherman wave thread,

What exactly is the law about the general legality, transport and use of our favourite tools (knives, axes, machete's and all the others)?

My current understanding is you can carry most tools so long as you have good reason (I.E. Carrying an axe in the forest is fine, carrying an axe to a football match not so good) and that in Scotland you may be challenged on the good reason (thus having to prove your off to the wilderness or have a trade reason). Purpose built weapons are illegal to be carrying around (combat knives, swords etc).

most info taken from trueways shop forum http://www.survival-school.org/Default.aspx?tabid=249&g=posts&t=62

[Thumbcrusher]

One thing to bear in mind with multitools such as the leathermans etc. They tend to have locking blades which make them illegal to carry in the UK, (as far as i am aware!).

[comanighttrain]

One thing to bear in mind with multitools such as the leathermans etc. They tend to have locking blades which make them illegal to carry in the UK, (as far as i am aware!).

yep. If you have a leatherman and it gets seen in a public place you will be challenged - however if you keep it in a bag or pocket then the police won't challenge you unless your behaving like a lout or get into a fight or something in which case you are in real trouble. Leathermans are however tools...so its not as if they are catching you with a dagger or something...you probably wont get lifted or prosecuted unless your actually doing something threatening.

As is my understanding anyway...

[Thumbcrusher]

Found this on here - https://www.askthe.police.uk

Q337: Is it illegal to carry a knife around in my pocket?


It is illegal to carry any sharp or bladed instrument in a public place (with the exception of a folding pocket knife, which has a blade that is less than 7.62 cm (3 inches)).

A lock knife is not a folding pocket knife and therefore it is illegal to carry around such a knife regardless of the length of the blade (if you do not have reasonable excuse). A lock knife means a knife which is similar to a folding knife, in that there is a spring holding the blade closed. However, a lock knife has a mechanism which locks the blade in position when fully extended, the blade cannot be closed without that mechanism being released. A lock knife is not an offensive weapon per se (because these knives were made with a specific purpose in mind and not as a weapon). However, possession of a lock knife in a public place without reasonable excuse is an offence.

Possession of a multi-tool incorporating a prohibited blade/pointed article is capable of being an offence under this section even if there are other tools on the instrument which may be of use to a person in a public place (screwdriver, can opener).

The ban is not total, it is for the person in possession of such an instrument to prove on the balance of probabilities that he/she had good reason for its possession. It will have to be genuine, for example, someone back packing across the Lake District may reasonably be expected to have a knife for the preparation of meals. It will be far more difficult to justify on the streets of a city or town, but there will be occasions when someone is genuinely going to a martial arts sport or scout meeting (which is easily checked).

The penalty for committing this offence is a maximum prison sentence of four years.

[Fletching]

Thanks for the heads-up Thumbcrusher. :)

'Reasonable excuse / good reason' being the operative words then.

Steve

[jbrown14]

Wow, you chaps seem to have even more restrictions than we do in the States on what's legal to carry. I could walk around the local mall with a Leatherman strapped to my belt in its carry-case if I wanted to, and it's perfectly legal. I'm sitting at my desk at work right now with a Kershaw Chill (http://www.kershawknives.com/productdetails.php?id=514&brand=kershaw) folder clipped to my pocket, and a couple of other flavors of knife in my bag, all legal to carry as they fall under certain length restrictions, and are not "auto-opening" or switchblade types. Locking mechanism of any kind doesn't make a difference regarding legality on a knife over here, for me it's more of a safety thing, and even then I've had one liner-lock knife close on a finger once and have a scar to remind me.

I've been guessing by some other threads that it's either not legal or not easy to get an actual firearm like a .22 caliber rifle for small game hunting either. Well, that's it from me, don't want to hijack the thread...

[Fletching]

Hi jbrown14, we're limited to 12 ft. lbs on rifles (or pistols). If you want anything more powerful than that, then you'll need a Firearms Certificate (FAC) which are strictly controlled.Getting one depends on where you live, what you intend to use it for, criminal record, mental state, etc.

Steve

[Edwin]

Worth pointing out that membership of an historical reenacting group or martial arts does allow one to have swords etc in one's possession in a public place. Strangely the law seems not to distinguish between sharp and blunt blades which is strange because a deliberately blunt sword is a bar of iron. Oh yes, gold-plating the legislation as they always do, they threw in the requirement that the legitimising group must have third party insurance just to make it more difficult.

However, on the bright side this does mean that a group I belong to now has a corps of belly dancers as the only way they could legalise the scimitars they use in their dances was to join a society dedicated to wearing plate armour and hitting people.

Scottish MPs are dedicated to eliminating swords and airguns in Scotland but I expect chaps in skirts with claymores (properly broadswords) will be exempt for the tourists.

[jbrown14]

Thanks for the info, Steve. When looking into hunting laws for my state, I found that it was illegal to use an air rifle under a certain velocity (they didn't measure it by ft/lbs.) With our current federal and state laws, I could walk into a sporting goods store and walk out with just about any rifle or shotgun I desired, as long as I pass the criminal background check (which I hope I would...) Handguns are subject to permitting which I would have to apply for and go through an approval process.

As far as swords are concerned, it is certainly illegal to carry one on one's person in public unless in the most unusual of circumstances, i.e. historic re-enactment troupe or the like, but I don't know if a special permit is required to do so. I do know that no special permit is required here to merely own swords. My brother-in-law and cousin each have a small collection of swords which they have on display in their homes. (Dragons on the hilt of one sword...lovely mythical flying beast, beautiful plumage!)

Cheers!

Josh

[Fletching]

Worth pointing out that membership of an historical reenacting group or martial arts does allow one to have swords etc in one's possession in a public place. Strangely the law seems not to distinguish between sharp and blunt blades which is strange because a deliberately blunt sword is a bar of iron. Oh yes, gold-plating the legislation as they always do, they threw in the requirement that the legitimising group must have third party insurance just to make it more difficult.

However, on the bright side this does mean that a group I belong to now has a corps of belly dancers as the only way they could legalise the scimitars they use in their dances was to join a society dedicated to wearing plate armour and hitting people.

Scottish MPs are dedicated to eliminating swords and airguns in Scotland but I expect chaps in skirts with claymores (properly broadswords) will be exempt for the tourists.

lol!

[Fletching]

Anyone know what the laws are in Canada? I wouldn't mind doing a bit of hunting there at some future point if at all possible.

Steve

[swkieran]

the laws in this country have been made because as usuall a small minority (youth knife crime in towns and citys,thugs and football holligans etc ),spoil it for the majority of responsible people like us who actually respect our bladed instruments axes and knifes,but like said above if there in a back pack and youre in the midddle of nowhere no one is ever going to know,but you get stop checked and searched by the police and they find gear like that,then you proberly run the risk i would of thought for being arrested for going equipped and youre bladded instruments confiscated,but i dont no the percific law on it :)

[Tony1948]

As fletch said Reasonable excuse, if your strolling down OXFORD STREET or threw Lakeside with a blade or axe on your belt your get nicked,out in the country with all your gear,backpack,bedroll,cooking,an axe and knife on your pack I reckon youve got just cause and if pulled nothing would be said apart from asking wear you where going to camp.Listen you lot, you be carefull out there

[Edwin]

As a freeborn subject of 'er Majesty I object to having to justify any action. Why should one have to?
I even think it wrong that police and social workers are permitted to stop free children in the streets during school-time and interrogate them let alone being asked why I have a particular personal possession on me in Oxford Street.

Once upon a time we actually had a liberalisation of laws, eg. Night walking ceased to be an offence, yeah walking around in the dark without reasonable excuse, even earlier straying from one's home parish could be sanctioned. But no more liberalisation which would displease the tabloids and mean politicians and police having to do some real skull work.

'Course it is so much easier to criminalise ordinary people than to tackle nasty rough gang boys. While I rant think on this, how many people with relatively harmless "weapons" or none at all (see chair leg in a bag) have been shot by UK police compared with those actually armed with a lethal weapon or posing a real threat?

Be careful how you carry you tent poles, its dangerous out there.

[JEEP]

In Denmark the police has started actively going after hobbyists (fishers, hikers, scouts, hunters, re-enactors, etc.) and professionals (craftsmen, military personell, people carrying stanley knives for opening boxes at their work, etc.).

After the powers that be, as a result of a massive media hysteria, decided to introduce a nearly unavoidable seven day prison sentence for carrying a knife (folders with no lock and blade below seven cm exempt) in the "wrong place" (apparantly any place), they ordered the police to go out and produce some results - and so the police did...

The most grotesque example was a scout leader whom was handcuffed and taken away by the police, in front of his junior troupe, because his knife was 2 cm too long! He avoided prison, but still had to pay a fine and now has possesion of illegal weapon writtin in his criminal record.

Luckily our supreme court has changed a lot of verdicts from imprisonments to D.Kr. 5000 fines - but most of the convicted persons shouldn't have been convicted in the first place.

The worst part; what happens when you raise the punishment for carrying a knife to almost the same level as for carrying a gun? The criminals start carrying guns instead of knives, when the risk is almost the same, why not chose the more effective tool? Since the introduction of the new law violent crime with knives has fallen - and violent crime with guns has risen equally.

[comanighttrain]

In Denmark the police has started actively going after hobbyists (fishers, hikers, scouts, hunters, re-enactors, etc.) and professionals (craftsmen, military personell, people carrying stanley knives for opening boxes at their work, etc.).

After the powers that be, as a result of a massive media hysteria, decided to introduce a nearly unavoidable seven day prison sentence for carrying a knife (folders with no lock and blade below seven cm exempt) in the "wrong place" (apparantly any place), they ordered the police to go out and produce some results - and so the police did...

The most grotesque example was a scout leader whom was handcuffed and taken away by the police, in front of his junior troupe, because his knife was 2 cm too long! He avoided prison, but still had to pay a fine and now has possesion of illegal weapon writtin in his criminal record.

Luckily our supreme court has changed a lot of verdicts from imprisonments to D.Kr. 5000 fines - but most of the convicted persons shouldn't have been convicted in the first place.

The worst part; what happens when you raise the punishment for carrying a knife to almost the same level as for carrying a gun? The criminals start carrying guns instead of knives, when the risk is almost the same, why not chose the more effective tool? Since the introduction of the new law violent crime with knives has fallen - and violent crime with guns has risen equally.

Yeah actually I seen a guy get robbed outside of Central station in Koebenhavn (my attempt at spelling Copenhagen....althought that might be Swedish spelling...or just bad spelling.) two guys with a knife. Thats nothing new though. In Glasgow they take your stuff and stab you so its not so bad. Terrible that rather than tackle the very obvious grimy underworld that they would rather attack every day citizens. At least its not just the UK with a retarded government.

[hellbilly]

:confused2: Thats some KRAZY laws ! There tuff on you boys ! I can wear my hunting knife on my side any where I go even in to the bank to cash a check ! I would feel naked with out a knife on me !! I carry a gun in my truck every where I go ..

[markal17]

iv been stopd i allways tell them iv got a knife and its in my rucksack at the botton and if they give me 5 min il get it out
they just say ok then let me get on my way most of the times iv been stop is when night walking
be safe have fun

[jbrown14]

Over here Cops still have to have reasonable cause to search you. If you're just randomly stopped on the street and an officer goes through your pockets or bag without reason, any evidence of criminal acts they may find on you or anything contraband can't be used as evidence against you because it was obtained by an illegal search and seizure. The evidence is now "tainted" as they say.

As long as a knife is not "auto-opening" aka switchblade type, the blade is under 4 inches long (3.9875 inches is fine...) and it is a folding knife, as an average citizen, I am allowed to carry it on my person anywhere except government buildings in New York State. I don't know the laws for the rest of the US, but some are stricter and some are more lenient. I can't, as Hellbilly says, carry my hunting knife on my side unless I'm hiking in the backcountry, but there are small towns in the mountains around here where it wouldn't raise any eyebrows if I did so.

I'd feel naked without a knife on me too. Got a SOG folder on the corner of my pocket right now... :D

[Cheez-it]

Here in Kentucky there are absolutely no restrictions on carrying blades, other than no switchblades (which I believe is a federal law). Technically, I have a legal right to walk around in public with an enormous sword on my back, although the police could still get me for "disturbing the peace." Really the only places I can't display a blade are those that have a no weapons sticker on their doors.

As far as firearms go, open carry of any firearm is legal, but you need to be at least 21 to be in possession of a handgun when not accompanied by someone 21 or older. But again, a cop can still take you down if they think you're bothering people.

But that's what concealed carry licenses are for.

I'm pretty lucky to live in one of the fairly lenient states. Not the most lenient, mind, but I have few complaints.

[Martin]

Here in Kentucky there are absolutely no restrictions on carrying blades, other than no switchblades (which I believe is a federal law). Technically, I have a legal right to walk around in public with an enormous sword on my back, although the police could still get me for "disturbing the peace." Really the only places I can't display a blade are those that have a no weapons sticker on their doors.

As far as firearms go, open carry of any firearm is legal, but you need to be at least 21 to be in possession of a handgun when not accompanied by someone 21 or older. But again, a cop can still take you down if they think you're bothering people.

But that's what concealed carry licenses are for.

I'm pretty lucky to live in one of the fairly lenient states. Not the most lenient, mind, but I have few complaints.

Not sure I'd like a free for all on carrying weapons here but each to their own. Anyway, a very warm welcome to the NaturalBushcraft forum. :)

Martin

[Cheez-it]

Well, it may be legal but most people actively avoid exercising the right. Too much unwanted attention. ;)

And thanks for the welcome!

[Realearner]

Hi and just to add, a pistol of the air variety is only allowed 6ft/lbs. Also you may think that your weapon is legal but the old bill are allowed to take it away and fire any pellet through it, if it goes over the legal limit by any amount!! You can be fined unto £5000 and/or 5 years prison.
Love this country, and then you get moron football players that it funny to fire a air rifle at an apprentice in a training ground, and then get away with it, go figure.

[Blu]

Hi all,
My first post here, so be gentle with me. I've been carrying a folder of various designs, makes and sizes for years, in fact since i was a boy (every boy used to have a "pen knife"). For the last 5 years i have been carrying a Leatherman tool on my belt. My most recent purchase is a Leatherman Surge, the 2 main blades ( 1 serrated and one straight edge) are both over 3 inches and have liner locks. I have never in all my years of carrying a folder been stopped by a police officer.

I think a lot of stop and search issues arise from a persons manner and actions when being observed in a public place. In my opinion anyone that is being irrisponsible/showing off with a knife in a public/non public place should be dealt with under the law. In other words use the knife/tool for it's intended purpose then put it away out of sight and knowone will be any the wiser or can/will object.

[Tony1948]

Hi Blu, welcome to the forum.

[Martin]

Hi all,
My first post here, so be gentle with me. I've been carrying a folder of various designs, makes and sizes for years, in fact since i was a boy (every boy used to have a "pen knife"). For the last 5 years i have been carrying a Leatherman tool on my belt. My most recent purchase is a Leatherman Surge, the 2 main blades ( 1 serrated and one straight edge) are both over 3 inches and have liner locks. I have never in all my years of carrying a folder been stopped by a police officer.

I think a lot of stop and search issues arise from a persons manner and actions when being observed in a public place. In my opinion anyone that is being irrisponsible/showing off with a knife in a public/non public place should be dealt with under the law. In other words use the knife/tool for it's intended purpose then put it away out of sight and knowone will be any the wiser or can/will object.

Amen!!!

Martin

[Silverback]

Amen!!!

Martin

Amen too

[bigzee]

Hi all,
My first post here, so be gentle with me. I've been carrying a folder of various designs, makes and sizes for years, in fact since i was a boy (every boy used to have a "pen knife"). For the last 5 years i have been carrying a Leatherman tool on my belt. My most recent purchase is a Leatherman Surge, the 2 main blades ( 1 serrated and one straight edge) are both over 3 inches and have liner locks. I have never in all my years of carrying a folder been stopped by a police officer.

I think a lot of stop and search issues arise from a persons manner and actions when being observed in a public place. In my opinion anyone that is being irrisponsible/showing off with a knife in a public/non public place should be dealt with under the law. In other words use the knife/tool for it's intended purpose then put it away out of sight and knowone will be any the wiser or can/will object.
Amen three!!!

[Ashley Cawley]

Found this on here - https://www.askthe.police.uk

Q337: Is it illegal to carry a knife around in my pocket?


It is illegal to carry any sharp or bladed instrument in a public place (with the exception of a folding pocket knife, which has a blade that is less than 7.62 cm (3 inches)).

A lock knife is not a folding pocket knife and therefore it is illegal to carry around such a knife regardless of the length of the blade (if you do not have reasonable excuse). A lock knife means a knife which is similar to a folding knife, in that there is a spring holding the blade closed. However, a lock knife has a mechanism which locks the blade in position when fully extended, the blade cannot be closed without that mechanism being released. A lock knife is not an offensive weapon per se (because these knives were made with a specific purpose in mind and not as a weapon). However, possession of a lock knife in a public place without reasonable excuse is an offence.

Possession of a multi-tool incorporating a prohibited blade/pointed article is capable of being an offence under this section even if there are other tools on the instrument which may be of use to a person in a public place (screwdriver, can opener).

The ban is not total, it is for the person in possession of such an instrument to prove on the balance of probabilities that he/she had good reason for its possession. It will have to be genuine, for example, someone back packing across the Lake District may reasonably be expected to have a knife for the preparation of meals. It will be far more difficult to justify on the streets of a city or town, but there will be occasions when someone is genuinely going to a martial arts sport or scout meeting (which is easily checked).

The penalty for committing this offence is a maximum prison sentence of four years.

A superb website - great idea. Thanks for sharing their answer with us, summarises it nicely.

As far as I'm concerned here in the UK there are 3 basic rules you need to follow in order to not get bothered by the authorities RE carrying a knife:

Make sure the cutting edge of your folding knife is less than 3 inches
Make sure the folding knife doesn't have a locking mechanism
Don't act inappropriately with your tool/knife
Follow those basic rules and hopefully you'll never get bothered. If your thinking; What about a fixed-blade or axe? You'll need to be in an appropriate place (private land) and have an appropriate reason to carry it (a reason of which you might need to justify to a police officer).

It does annoy me that:
a) I think the law is too strict in this area.
b) Most of the general populous look upon knives as weapons (not tools).

[Blu]

Maybe with this being a UK based website, it may be an idea to only revue/report on knives/tools that are legal to carry in the UK. Obviously i am sure we are all aware of the more uses and certainly the safety factors of using a fixed blade or locking blade as opposed to a folder/non locking blade.

I myself have used many non locking bladed knives/tools and have indeed had a few "incidents" due to the blade closing while being used.

I in no way support the carrying of illegal blades, but i do think the laws covering knives in the UK need revueing. As i have said, i carry a leatherman surge tool, it's name reflects it's useage. What is the point in having a multitool kept in a drawer at home when it is/may be needed for a task during your average day.

Just because a law has been passed does not mean that it is right or fair. I thought welived in a democratic society, i don't ever remember being asked what i thought/wanted.

Just my thoughts of course.

[Silverback]

FWIW I have 2 knives, both with blades 3 ins and both lock and I have not only carried them in a public place but have used them i.e. had them out and cut things in the presence of Police Officers, without attracting a single comment or a 4 year jail term.

About the knives. One is a rope rescue knife. It lives permanently in my rucksack and has a primary use for cutting away climbing gear. The other is a J bladed knife and is designed for use in water (hence no point) and once again is primarily used for cutting at obstructions or snags. It lives permenently attached to my PFD. Both have semi serrated edges and can be opened one handed.

I am in no doubt if I carried them around Tesco's then surely I would cop for a 4 stretch and know what ? I would deserve it too for being a plank. Its about appropriate use and 'just cause' for owning them...... in my humble opinion.

I'm in FULL agreement with Ashley. If you cannot justify your reasons for owning/use/carriage exercise your common sense & avoid the worry and potential conflict and dont use them - if you are going to use them then done wave them around in public. You wouldn't do it with your willy so dont do it with your blade people these days find both equally offensive.