Should stupid people be rescued..?

[JonnyP]

Of course, but maybe they should pay in some way for their stupidity..
Bloke up on Nevis in trainers gets rescued.. http://www.lochaber-news.co.uk/News/Blast-for-walkers-act-of-sheer-stupidity-09012013.htm
I hope the muppet gave the rescue team a big donation..

[Realearner]

Well you get charged for transportation from a road traffic accident. So why not a charge but higher for anyone pulled off a mountain or rescued at sea, even more so if proved to be idiots after the fact.

[paulthefish2009]

I hope the rescue team gave the Muppet some stern words,idiot!Paul

[BJ]

Lots of very dedicated people put their lives on the line regularly to rescue these people, but if you asked them I am sure they would still attend. Unfortunately idiocy is not curable but the lives can be saved. How do we drive home the message ?. I have seen it when kayaking with a guy and his two kids in an inflatable half a mile offshore with no floatation jackets. :oops: just fell off my high horse. (apologies for rant)
BJ

[paulthefish2009]

No Bj ,you are right to rant mate,to many fools in this world,kind of hoped mother nature would naturally select them for extinction! Paul

[Silverback]

Lots of very dedicated people put their lives on the line regularly to rescue these people, but if you asked them I am sure they would still attend. Unfortunately idiocy is not curable but the lives can be saved. How do we drive home the message ?. I have seen it when kayaking with a guy and his two kids in an inflatable half a mile offshore with no floatation jackets. :oops: just fell off my high horse. (apologies for rant)
BJ

Youre right we do turn out.

[ian c]

I think that anyone that has you use the rescue services should give a donation and the idiots that go out ill prepard/ equiped should be fined the amount that it has cost the rescue services, i know if i needed help from them i would get it thats why i do give a donation.

[FishyFolk]

We got plenty of these muppets here to. And high season for them is soon starting. And that is despite TV campaigns urging people to heed the mountain codes, and having thme hammered at you in all media for weeks, every year since before we learn to walk...

[Ehecatl]

Unfortunately there is no law against stupidity and there is no law against people thinking "it will never happen to me" (which I think is stupidity too).

I've slipped over coming down Ben Nevis and it was *very* easy terrain :ashamed:. Fortunately I could still hobble although we were kitted out for an over night stop if required.

So the question I have is, had I required rescuing should I have been charged?

I would add that in the event I was ever rescued I would donate a decent chunk of wad.

[FishyFolk]

well, well, this young gentleman was perhaps not the sharpest knife in the drawer. But what to do with people that call rescue services because they are late for a meeting, and demand to be picked up by a SAR helicopter....and when refused yell that they are tax payers and therefore have the right to demand one...lol - it has happened

[FishyFolk]

well, well, this young gentleman was perhaps not the sharpest knife in the drawer. But what to do with people that call rescue services because they are late for a meeting, and demand to be picked up by a SAR helicopter....and when refused yell that they are tax payers and therefore have the right to demand one...lol - it has happened

http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=no&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=no&ie=UTF-8&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aftenposten.no%2Fnyheter%2Firik s%2FNordmenn-gidder-ikke-ga-ned-fra-fjellet-selv-6969012.html

The link is to a google translated article

[rawfish111]

I think there is much deserved indignation in some of the above posts and the rescue services should be allowed to levy an 'idiot charge'

I went out to a berk off Dartmouth a couple of years ago. Roughish weather, he'd put to sea in a motorsailer with a rebuilt (but untested) engine and no sodding sails, just him and two (scared) kids onboard. When I got him secure and told him to heave in his anchor the winch was shot and he couldn't even ditch it as his bitter end was just a continuation of his chain and no hacksaw/bolt cutters onboard. I took the kids onboard and towed the bright bloke in... not even a letter of thanks for any of it. Not even to the lifeboat crew who came out as we got nearer to shore or the boat that took over the tow just off the harbour while I got the kids ashore either.

Yup the outdoors is full of real rocket scientists.

[Bob W]

Are people stupid or just ignorant/ill-informed? or a mixture of both.

I'm certainly not guilty of the first but I'm certainly guilty of the latter. For this reason, I think the "stupid" should definitely be rescued, what are the emergency services there for? to help all the people that know what they're doing?? :confused2:

I can see a bit of "I know better than you snobbery" creeping in here, and whilst I agree that people shouldn't go out unprepared, the fact is, they do! And sometimes they get into a bit of bother and need a bit of help, but they don't know before-hand that it will happen, they're not educated or prepared so they get labelled idiots or stupid because they're ignorant of a few basics, god forbid it should happen to any of us, but it just might!!

[Adam Savage]

Charging/fining folk for rescue services, is a very problematic area. You need to define "appropriate" preparation/precautions, and then create legislation/laws to put them into force. The grey area occurs when...

a) You try to decide who should dictate these terms, as well as drawing up suitable proposals to present to the public, and to the powers that file such legislation.

b) Each location presents it's own requirements, which means each location needs to be defined and categorised respectively.

c) The public would need to be advised about such acts/legislations, as well as their component parts. By this, I mean the information has to be freely available, and fairly easy to find/access.

d) If people did get into trouble, they may think twice before calling for help, just in case they get landed with a large penalty. That in itself is unethical, no matter how stupid the person/people. Add to that, these people may have children with them, and failing to call for help would place all persons in peril.

e) Finally the stupid people are the most likely to "pass" on the idea of rescue, to save a little money, so rescue teams would still be called in to collect the bodies.

All in all, a very costly and lengthy process. Not just costly in the financial sense, but in the cost of lives sense as well.

People really need to be educated in these dangers in the first place, but like you say (Ehecatl (http://www.naturalbushcraft.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?4927-Should-stupid-people-be-rescued&p=67002&viewfull=1#post67002)), these people will (almost) always think "it'll never happen to me".

[happybonzo]

I think that the French charge for mountain rescue?

[FishyFolk]

In Norway we charge for obvious stupidity when people break the law. F.ex by base jumping from Trollveggen, Europes highest vertical cliff face...1700 meters straight down. Back when it was legal to jump form it, there was several rescues....and collection of dead bodies. If you go up there to jump now there is a hefty fine, and if you need rescue, you get the bill for it. That is...if you are lucky. The Police chief in the area introduced a rescue ban there in 2007. So if you need rescue from some parts of the Trollveggen, you'll stay there. Nobody will come for you. It's simply to dangerous.

[Tigger004]

I think maybe a set fee would be a good idea, after all the insurance companies would soon have a policy for and for anyone doing it regularly they could choose to insure or not,
I do judo and my licence covers me personally my club's membership covers any indemnity, each person partaking has to be licenced, what's the difference.

[FishyFolk]

In Norway that would not fly at all. It would be seen as infringement on the right to roam. In the south of Norway someone tried to set up a fee for hiking, skiing on prepared trails and ski tracks...they got luaghed out of business. People just walked next to the track, perfectly legal. And specially on skis that is no problem at all :-)
Even on alpine type ski resorts, they can not charge you for using the slopes here. Only for the use of the ski lift, as the right to roam guarantees the publics acces to any land, as not as it is not agricultural land in use for that purpose.

But in England that would be very different. But with all the hindrance for the publics access to hiking that you already have, I do not think it would be wise to set up even more barriers.
Teach you people how to prepare instead, pass on your knowledge. Even iff the odd tool will slip trough the cracks. You want to encourage hiking and other forms of outdoors activities, not curb them with taxes, fees and insurances...

[HillBill]

Definately a Darwin award candidate.

I feel sorry for the human gene pool. There was a time when natural selection rooted out and destroyed, the weak, stupid, incompetent from it. Now we have a desire to keep everyone alive, which ultimately will only send our species down hill. The thing is, stupid tends to breed stupid. People should be responsible for their own actions, and ultimately, their own lives. he may have kids, who will learn from him, and if he is an idiot, they will inherit that, and then pass it on to their kids etc. One day, and we may have already reached that point, idiots will be the majority.

[Silverback]

I think maybe a set fee would be a good idea, after all the insurance companies would soon have a policy for and for anyone doing it regularly they could choose to insure or not

Who would the insurance money go to ? Who would make sure that the money went to the appropriate responding agencies ?

I've had to be stretchered off the hill..does that make me an idiot ?

While we are at it should we make people have insurance just in case they need medical treatment after going into town and getting so paralytic they end up in hospital, we could extend this to horse riders who also provide the ambulance service with quite a lot of work....oooh hang on heres a big money spinner....Should we also then levy a charge on the despondents, missing kids, people with alzheimers who also generate a large workload for the MR/ALSAR teams in the UK.

Would anyone on here like to approximate the cost to the tax payer of a UK mountain rescue call out ? Lets make it in the Peak District for example where very often a Sea King isn't viable because its 90 minutes away.

[Martin]

The problem is, there are a lot of internet warriors who never get their boots dirty yet are happy to sit at their computers, criticising those who do and then get into trouble.

No one would advocate, in this day and age, attempting the summit of Ben Nevis in trainers during the winter. However, it is the human spirit to believe we can achieve difficult things. If we discourage people from attempting such things should we discourage Sir Ranulph Fiennes, or Pen Hadow, or Ernest Shackleton, or Cpt Robert Falcon Scott, or Cpt James Cook etc etc etc?

Of course, we could hide behind health and safety and never do anything. I am always comforted in the knowledge that, if I should call, there will be help available should I need it, whether that be full time paid or volunteers. Some of my friends are volunteers with mountain rescue and the Coastguard, and they get a huge amount out of their volunteering.

Let's keep the spirit of adventure alive and not stifle it with insurance and regulation!!

Martin

[Silverback]

The problem is, there are a lot of internet warriors who never get their boots dirty yet are happy to sit at their computers, criticising those who do and then get into trouble.


yes BONGOs...Boots On Never Go Out

well said Martin

[OakAshandThorn]

Oh...my...gosh...:mad:
We have some fools around here as well, who think it's "cool" to go into the 900 acre forest across the street at night and attempt to climb the small mountain known as Mootry Peak. They end up (for the most part) getting lost and-or injured and have to phone for help. *facepalm*

[Kernowek Scouser]

I think part of the problem is not matter how much information is out there, there are people who believe that such information is for the uniformed and not for them.

As has been said, you can not legislate against stupidity (or ungratefulness and being an A hole) nor is it easy to draw a suitable line on one side of which is reasonable preparedness and on the other eyebrow raising muppetry.

And in defence of muppetry, is anyone born an expert outdoorsman (or woman)? Or do we all progress from being a novice/muppet through being reasonable competent/less of a muppet to perhaps one day being considered said expert outdoors person/only occasionally a muppet?

I'm not going to deny I shake my head when I hear reports of what trouble some folks get themselves into, and if it transpires that they were also ill prepared to get themselves out of trouble, the word muppet or similar my well escape my lips. But, having been a muppet myself and occasionally learned from my many mistakes, I then hope the reported muppet has the sense to learn themselves and if rescued by whatever agency, has the good grace to at least say thank you (a donation of some sort would also be good, but that is me and not everyone thinks as I do).

We already live in one of the most proscriptive societies in the world and plenty of people ignore the rules and regs we have, so would trying to construct than add more to combat hard to define muppetry, really make any difference?

I don't know.

[JonnyP]

Interesting points, but let me put this one in.. I used to know a guy who was big into walking n stuff. I had a lot of respect for him. He could out-walk me any day/week. He once told me about a time when he did the Snowdon horseshoe in trainers in the middle of Winter. He said Crib Goch was covered in a ream of ice. But he did it, and I know he would not of called rescue unless he was totally desperate.
I agree with Martin and the Spirit of Adventure, esp after the death of my Janies dad this morning, which has rekindled the need to get out and do it in me.

I just deleted a load of stuff here cos my head ain't in the right place to explain what I mean fully..