what steel does Blackfox use?

[Dale_jonez]

does anyone here know what steel blackfox use for their knives?

it says for 440 stainless but doesnt specify which


thanks for any info you guys can give.

[paulthefish2009]

440 is the grade mate,it's a high carbon cutlery grade stainless. Paul

[Dale_jonez]

but would it be 440A? 440C?

seen a few nice blackfox knives , but dont want to end up having to sharpen every 5mins haha

[luresalive]

Chances are it'll be 440a , if it was 440c it would usually be labelled as such.. In saying that don't be put off by it, any steel is only as good as its heat treat and I've used 440a before and been very happy with it, don't fall into the rut of being a steel snob.

[HillBill]

440A isn't a very good knife steel :) 440C can be if the HT is good.

[JEEP]

It's 440A HRC 55-57

[Dale_jonez]

thanks jeep, much appreciated. i thought it might have been 440A and from what ive heard from other people it isnt that great at holding an edge for very long.

thanks everyone who posted an answer =)

[CanadianMike]

440A is kinda viewed as Chinese stainless steel. ;)

[luresalive]

You often hear about "chinese steels" yet no one can quantify them, to put it in perspective for you..BUCK uses 420 steel (supposedly a poor relative to the 440's) yet their knives are magnificent, Spyderco's TENACIOUS line of knives are made in China and are highly regarded, and if you check on british blades and look up SAN REN MU, you will find these cheap chinese knives have all had superb reviews for their price.. The 440 series of steels is light years ahead of bronze and copper tools yet we built civilizations on those! It's all about perspective, and how much and hard you intend to use them!

[HillBill]

Buck knives used to be good. They aint held in the same esteem any more. 420 steel has a MAXIMUM attainable hardness of 52 RC, 440A has 56 max RC (its only 0.6% carbon content) Which would only be a medium carbon steel. :)

[nilo52]

Buck knives used to be good. They aint held in the same esteem any more. 420 steel has a MAXIMUM attainable hardness of 52 RC, 440A has 56 max RC (its only 0.6% carbon content) Which would only be a medium carbon steel. :)

HillBill ,

I got a Buck 110 years ago. I'm not sure if it was in 1968, or 1969 , what kind of steel did they use then ?
It has been a good knife over the years and is of course stainless. I am only recently learning about steels.
Nilo52

[luresalive]

Interesting what you say about Buck knives Mark as I know quite a few people who would disagree with you on that point! Also very interesting criteria on 420 and 440 steels, taking it as is from what you say it seems to be that 440 is a much better steel than that used by one of the biggest knife makers out there.

[HillBill]

As a knife maker i'm going to have different ideas about whats good and whats not on a knife. Its my job after all :)

I also know quite a few people who would say the opposite to yourself also regarding buck :) But it depends on what your looking at with them. Construction wise, cant really fault them, Steel wise, they use the cheapest stainless they can get their hands on ...420. No knife in 420 could be classed as a "good" knife as the steel isn't good.

440C is a good knife steel.....440B less so, and 440A even less so still. 420 comes in behind these. 440 is much better than 420, but 440A is commonly used in production knives, and then normally ones made in china or India. One or two makers like 440C for collectors/showpiece knives, that are required to be polished and shiney and remain so. 440c takes a super mirror polish.

Buck may be a big knife making company. But if the steel they use isnt good, neither are their knives. They are adequate, they do the job, nothing more than adequate though.

EDIT. just had a read and its 420HC they use, which is better than 420, as it has a bit higher carbon content. After a read through various forums though, the consensus is that the steel has good heat treatment, but is still only an average steel.

This is taken from Jay fishers website. He as good info on most steels on there..
http://www.jayfisher.com/Blades.htm#420_Stainless_Steel

Are there still bad stainless steels use in knives? Of course there are and they are typically and nowadays found on cheap stainless knives imported usually from China, India, Taiwan, or Pakistan. These are usually 420 series stainless steels, which are worth some serious discussion.

420 stainless steel can be very corrosion resistant, and can be very tough (resistant to breakage, flexible without breaking). But please anchor this point into all of your arguments and consideration about this steel. It can only be hardened in its maximum hardness to 51-52 HRC or Rockwell on the C scale. This is substantially and markedly softer than a 440C stainless steel blade, which is typically hardened and tempered to 58HRC, and often higher. 51HRC is softer than knife blades, gouges, and much softer than drills used to drill brass or wood. 51HRC is softer than augers, chisels, axes, and even sewing needles. 51HRC is softer than a leaf spring, screwdrivers, softer than even the cheapest hand-saw for wood that you can sharpen with a file. Yep, that 420 stainless steel blade that is now on most Ka-Bar knives is soft at its very highest potential of hardness, particularly when compared to fine high alloy stainless steel knives. Most of the Ka-bar knives are made of 420 stainless steel, and you'll see a sneaky advertising ploy from the manufacturer of these steels claiming the hardness is 52-58 Rockwell. This is a ridiculous, huge range of hardness, which tells me that they are either careless about their heat treating, or they want you to ignore the 52 and hope that their knives are harder (they aren't and can't be if they are 420 stainless steel). Make no mistake; the big name knife manufacturers here and overseas are mostly using 420 stainless steels. They may have variations, versions that have slightly higher carbon content to push the hardness up somewhat, but this is still a bad, cheap steel. They may claim on their web site and promotional material how great 420 is, but now you know the truth.

After reading this, now you know why those cheap 420 series stainless steel blades gave all other stainless steels a bad reputation, and will continue to do so. Why do these companies and manufacturers use 420? Because it is super-cheap, easier to stamp out, grind, machine, work, and manufacture a knife with, and that represents a substantial savings to them, not to the person who wants the best knife steels for his investment. Don't group all stainless steels together; they can be drastically different!




Interesting what you say about Buck knives Mark as I know quite a few people who would disagree with you on that point! Also very interesting criteria on 420 and 440 steels, taking it as is from what you say it seems to be that 440 is a much better steel than that used by one of the biggest knife makers out there.

[HillBill]

If it was made prior to 1993 it will be 440C mate. They started using 420 in '93


HillBill ,

I got a Buck 110 years ago. I'm not sure if it was in 1968, or 1969 , what kind of steel did they use then ?
It has been a good knife over the years and is of course stainless. I am only recently learning about steels.
Nilo52

[rawfish111]

interesting thread this!

[luresalive]

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/640524-Buck-Knives-steel

Post number 10 is interesting reading.. But I do agree each to their own, I'm not a metallurgist just a heavy knife user having used many types and given them hard use over the years and thus simply relate my own experience, and most people who regularly use knives have their own opinions and are perfectly entitled to them.

[nilo52]

I was just looking @ Ebay and there are sellers using D2 die steel. I am assuming this is stronger.
You can get one generally for less than $90.00 , but I have 8 knives already and the wife would flip out if I got another anytime soon :mad2: Also I have heard that the edge on a flint knife is sharper than steel, some of the surgeons I work with use special scalpels that have a flint blade. Just thought I'd mention this. Also my dad left me some saw blades that are marked "01 tool steel"
Nilo

[HillBill]

D2 is a good knife steel. Makes a better blade than any of the 420/440 range.

Yep, flint knives can be sharper than steel, but very brittle and not sharpenable. i believe it is obsidian that surgeons use, could be wrong but thats what i recall.

[nilo52]

D2 is a good knife steel. Makes a better blade than any of the 420/440 range.

Yep, flint knives can be sharper than steel, but very brittle and not sharpenable. i believe it is obsidian that surgeons use, could be wrong but thats what i recall.

Yep your right !
I meant to say obsidian , not flint. I was having a "senior" moment I guess. The scalpel in question is never sharpened, only autoclaved. I know they use them more than once but replaced as required.

[nilo52]

HillBill ,

I definitely defer to you on knife making ( I only made 2) and I would be interested in what your favorite knife blade steel is ? Also what do you think of Mora knives ? I just bought a companion and really like it a lot.

[HillBill]

Favourite blade steel? In all honesty, i've not tried half of whats out there. So far i have used (as a user not maker) 420, 440, 1095, 01, 12C27, RWL-34 and Damasteel. Plus, i expect, a few others i've not known about.

Out of all those i have used 01 the most as thats what i started making with, Good steel. 12C27 is the equal in performance to 01 but is stainless. RWL-34 is a good strong stainless which takes and holds a good edge, probably better than 12c27 but i havent used an RWL-34 knife enough to form proper judgement. Damasteel is a mix of RWL and 12C27 so its gonna be good.

Favourite i would say is Damasteel. But thats only because its stainless damascus and looks lovely, it has a good mix of steels in it though so its not just on looks alone. Though as i said, i tend to reach for the 01 knife most of the time. I'd say thats more because its what i'm used to than a performance reason. 01 is plenty good enough though.

Moras are great for the money. Their stainless knives are in 12c27, so cant fault them there either. Can't go wrong really. :)

[Dale_jonez]

interesting thread this!

i seem to have started a bit of a debate with this thread haha.

it is interesting as u say , as i'm not familiar with a lot of steels out there and a relative newbie in terms of bushcraft, there are some very knowledgeable (spelling??) people on here, and the information being posted is a good read, thanks to all that have posted :)

[Dale_jonez]

ive only used 12C27 and 8CR13MOV really , and maybe some of the cheaper end 440 steel on old penknives when i was younger etc.

[HillBill]

:) Post 5 has some links :)

http://www.britishblades.com/forums/showthread.php?163816-Buck-110-folder-quality-control-issues

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/640524-Buck-Knives-steel

Post number 10 is interesting reading.. But I do agree each to their own, I'm not a metallurgist just a heavy knife user having used many types and given them hard use over the years and thus simply relate my own experience, and most people who regularly use knives have their own opinions and are perfectly entitled to them.