Here we go again...

[FishyFolk]

Where are they coming from...well well, someone has chosen to get lost in this area, during a storm with hurricane strength gusts.
Those willing to risk it are out searching. Feel I should pray for them, but I am not much for that sort of thing... :zombie-fighting:

Apparntly what happened was that his 2 mates sensibly turned back due to the weather and darkness setting in. While this *person* decided to continue to the top on his own...

I think public whipping should be re-introduced in these cases.

10964

[FishyFolk]

It's my firm belief that knowing when NOT to go out there is the number one survival skill.
Now there is another SAR op going on in the same storm. This after a lady who decied to go into the hills on skis
for an afternoon excercice run, while the media is screaming that a hurricane is coming and the police is asking people to stay indoors...

[beermaker]

Sound like a right pair of prats. My humanity dictates that I hope they are found well, but I'm mostly thinking of the SAR teams out looking for these idiots and wishing them well. Public whipping definitely, and at the very least these pillocks should be fined the cost of the SAR effort.

[Stamp]

Your right, knowing your abilities and reading the conditions (in this case obvious!) should be the first rule of survival!

Fingers crossed they are ok, no matter how stupid their decisions lets hope the hero's out there find them safe and sound.

[Silverback]

Remind me again about how much the SAR efforts cost ? Particularly in the UK. Remember this the folks in SAR are perfectly capable of going out in bad weather, won't put their lives in mortal danger, will go out for anyone and lastly do not consider themselves at all heroic

[Stamp]

Remind me again about how much the SAR efforts cost ? Particularly in the UK. Remember this the folks in SAR are perfectly capable of going out in bad weather, won't put their lives in mortal danger, will go out for anyone and lastly do not consider themselves at all heroic

In my personal view not considering what they do is what makes their actions heroic, its a term widely used and much over used these days. People who win sporting events are often called hero's, they aren't, people who risk their lives for others are hero's in my book.

[Silverback]

Stan...... I have just retired from 13 years service in MR as a Search Dog handler, advanced medic and swiftwater and flood rescue technician...we are not heroes, just folks that are prepared to go a little further. The risks are calculated and minimised as much as possible hence the incredibly low number of injuries and deaths on ops

[Stamp]

Stan...... I have just retired from 13 years service in MR as a Search Dog handler, advanced medic and swiftwater and flood rescue technician...we are not heroes, just folks that are prepared to go a little further. The risks are calculated and minimised as much as possible hence the incredibly low number of injuries and deaths on ops

Yep, I know.... I still stand by what I said, I am sure you haven't kept count of the number of people you have helped in those 13 years but I bet everyone of them will never forget what you and others like you have done for them. This is my opinion and I stand by it, please take it with the admiration intended. I once broke my arm in 3 places while on my mountain bike and a drunk driver decided to drive towards me. I was left for dead by this T**T and if it wasn't for ordinary people stopping to help me who knows what could of happened. I will never forget the couple who took me in, called an ambulance, called my wife and looked after my kit until I could pick it up. Then there were the paramedic's, they did their job, that's all.... But they did it in a way which I will never forget, I was in so much pain and shock they had to remind me to breath! Then all the doctors, nurses, porters, just doing their jobs. They were all hero's to me, all I could do was offer my gratitude for their help. They never risked their lives for me but when I needed someone all of them were there for me and I count myself lucky they were.

So you may not want to be called a hero and that's fine, but, to many people you will be and thank god there are people who will go that little bit further to help others.

By the way, they never caught the drunk driver........

[Stamp]

Besides, I have watched "cliffhanger" I know what you guys do! ;-)

[Silverback]

<Blush>..........

[Silverback]

Besides, I have watched "cliffhanger" I know what you guys do! ;-)

Helicopter heroes shows a more accurate representation...and if you know where to lool you may even catch a glimpse of moi

[FishyFolk]

Where are they coming from...well well, someone has chosen to get lost in this area, during a storm with hurricane strength gusts.
Those willing to risk it are out searching. Feel I should pray for them, but I am not much for that sort of thing... :zombie-fighting:

Apparntly what happened was that his 2 mates sensibly turned back due to the weather and darkness setting in. While this *person* decided to continue to the top on his own...

I think public whipping should be re-introduced in these cases.

10964

They found this one cold but allive. naturally he was not dressed or equipped to be out at all.

The lady skiier was found in a cabin she had broken into (wich is perfectly okay and a sensible thing to do in the circumstances), also cold, hungry but allive.

[rawfish111]

Sound like a right pair of prats. My humanity dictates that I hope they are found well, but I'm mostly thinking of the SAR teams out looking for these idiots and wishing them well. Public whipping definitely, and at the very least these pillocks should be fined the cost of the SAR effort.

+1

[Silverback]

Sound like a right pair of prats. My humanity dictates that I hope they are found well, but I'm mostly thinking of the SAR teams out looking for these idiots and wishing them well. Public whipping definitely, and at the very least these pillocks should be fined the cost of the SAR effort.

Fishy folk said
They found this one cold but allive. naturally he was not dressed or equipped to be out at all.

The lady skiier was found in a cabin she had broken into (wich is perfectly okay and a sensible thing to do in the circumstances), also cold, hungry but allive.

Hmmmm, I'll ask again particularly from the UK point of view....

a fine equivalent to the SAR effort..So how much does one cost then ? Who would get the money ? and Im sure any of the SAR volunteers who haunt these pages will tell you (retired or serving) whippings arent necessary but we do reserve the right to give someone a damn good talking to.....insurance isnt required as in the UK Land SAR costs the UK tax payer almost nothing and a lot less than the 90 million quid we waste on MP's

[FishyFolk]

Tried a search. But even the media only has speculations on what the cost of these things are. Mainly because the organisations involved like the Norwegian Red Cross Search and Rescue Corps and the 337Sqd of the Air Force (SAR Choppers) refuse to say.

[Silverback]

I was thinking more about UK SAR ops Rune....

Its the favourite thing for folks here in the UK (particularly those without mountain or moorland) to harp on (and im not picking on specific forum members either) about the cost to the taxpayer and how walkers/climbers etc should have insurance et al ad nauseum forgetting that a great number of rescues also include horse riders, dog walkers and even getting people out of houses...and that most of the cost comes out of the rescuers own pockets.....even the air ambulance is funded by donation

[FishyFolk]

Found some figures. Acording to the SAR station at Sola in Stavanger, a SAR helicopter cost 30 000 NOK per hour in the air. Thats around 3000£ an hour.

A snowscooter with crew costs 150£ an hour to run. Fuel is payed according to a government regulative at around 1£ per km for a snow scooter and 0,5£ for a car. With extras for passengers, trailers and cargo. The volunteers also get refunded for actual costs of meals.

The organisations send their bills to the Norwegian Joint Rescue Coordination Centres wich are run by the air force. The yearly bill is around 3,5 million NOK or 350 000£
Easter allone (thats when every idiot in Norway thinks he is Lars Monsen, and set out to conquer the mountains on skis) cost the volunteer SAR orgs 1 million NOK...
In addition these organisations get 4,5 million a year over the government budget for preventive meassures, as wella s training of crews.

These are not all the costs. Just what was mentioned in a Norwegian news article I found dated 1998....

[FishyFolk]

I was thinking more about UK SAR ops Rune....

Its the favourite thing for folks here in the UK (particularly those without mountain or moorland) to harp on (and im not picking on specific forum members either) about the cost to the taxpayer and how walkers/climbers etc should have insurance et al ad nauseum forgetting that a great number of rescues also include horse riders, dog walkers and even getting people out of houses...and that most of the cost comes out of the rescuers own pockets.....even the air ambulance is funded by donation

The costs should not differ much. A SAR chopper for example will cost about the same to run over there as here.

[Silverback]

The costs should not differ much. A SAR chopper for example will cost about the same to run over there as here.

In 13 ish years of MR ops had a helo to a job a handful of times I've seen them more in training....mainly because the transit time to where I was based was 90 minutes...in Snowdonia where its on the doorstep its a regular occurence.

The fact STILL remains that here in the UK SAR operators are almost wholly funded by donations from the public and many of the direct costs come direct from the individual rescuers pocket (its the vey reason i packed in - couldnt flipping afford it anymore)....not the public purse the UK govt does not pay the rescuer a penny, and peoples protestations would be better aimed elsewhere...

[FishyFolk]

In 13 ish years of MR ops had a helo to a job a handful of times I've seen them more in training....mainly because the transit time to where I was based was 90 minutes...in Snowdonia where its on the doorstep its a regular occurence.

The fact STILL remains that here in the UK SAR operators are almost wholly funded by donations from the public and many of the direct costs come direct from the individual rescuers pocket (its the vey reason i packed in - couldnt flipping afford it anymore)....not the public purse the UK govt does not pay the rescuer a penny, and peoples protestations would be better aimed elsewhere...

Not arguing against that at all...just put the numbers up to show what a rescue operation may cost in general, who ever is footing the bill...

[Silverback]

A friend who also posts here worked out that the direct costs to each rescuer within UK MRT's could be as high as £5k per annum - the figures they worked out came in between £3 and £5k dependent on region and of course role.

It was suggested in figures from a source within one of the search dog organisations that a figure of £25k was required to train and handle a SAR Dog this coming direct from the handler, particularly in training as sponsorship is not given to trainees or retirees for that matter - and of course the dog is the handlers dog a family pet, it doesnt belong to the SAR org.

It is worthy of note that alot of UK SAR teams both Mountain and Lowland spend more time looking for the vulnerable / mentally ill or even people evading than they do plucking the unprepared and foolish from danger

[FishyFolk]

It is worthy of note that alot of UK SAR teams both Mountain and Lowland spend more time looking for the vulnerable / mentally ill or even people evading than they do plucking the unprepared and foolish from danger

Same story here. Most of the searches are for elderly alzheimers patients who wandered off, things like that. Also people have accidents.

Last summer my uncle took his daughter with a friend hiking along a popular route in the Lofoten mountains in good weather. It was a clear day, blue skies, the sun was shining. Wather reports where good, they where on a well marked trail with lots of other people.

His daughters friend steps in a hole and sprains her ancle. Can't stand on it, and they are miles from the nearest road...except if they toss her over the edge...not an option.

But the lass was in good hands. My uncle is a certified mountain rescue dude (whatever the Red Cross call their SAR people. So he calls for help, and the JCRCC decides to send a SAR chopper...
The flight time from base was 30 minutes...so that operation cost a few quid. But we were talking a 13 year old girl here...so helicopter medevac.

[Silverback]

Same story here. Most of the searches are for elderly alzheimers patients who wandered off, things like that. Also people have accidents.


Yup but theres always no shortage of folk who have no concept of this and a massively off set opinion on how it should be solved particularly when it involves walkers mountaineers or climbers- imagine the uproar if it was suggested that cyclists be forced to wear helmets, & have insurance, or horse riders be made to pay for their 'rescue' as a couple of examples

[FishyFolk]

Yup but theres always no shortage of folk who have no concept of this and a massively off set opinion on how it should be solved particularly when it involves walkers mountaineers or climbers- imagine the uproar if it was suggested that cyclists be forced to wear helmets, & have insurance, or horse riders be made to pay for their 'rescue' as a couple of examples

It's the idiots out there that have me upset. The people who goes skiing into an avalanche zone while the media and all the authorities and rescue orgs are screaming that the avalanche danger level is in the red zone. Or people who decide to go into the mountains when the weather report is saying that we expect a hurricane and people should stay indoors.

I fully understand that people can get lost and confused and can't find their way home, been there done that. I also understand that people over rate how physically strong they are and end up needing a steady hand to get home (i.e fetching operations). But numpties like in the original post...hmmm....making them pay is not the answer either. It will up the treshold for when people ask for help. With the result that somone who could have been easilly helped earlier, wait until the situation escalates into danger fore both them and rescue crew. Where a simple asistance mission becomes a rescue...

But just maybe this should be re-introduced:

10968

[Silverback]

Thing is I dont understand why over here 'Mr Nimby of Surbiton' etc gets sooooo very angry and writes into his newspaper about it.....Its not as if Mr Nimby had to get out of his bed at 0200 and go do the call out is it ?

EVERYONE has to learn somewhere, accidents and mistakes WILL happen (repeat offenders get on my nerves, those and hoax callers)..I suppose its a good job that there are people out there who choose to get up at 0200 for a 24 hour rescue rather than writing letters to the editor of some provincial rag.

[Ashley Cawley]

Glad they both made it out alive. LOL pretty keen for the public humiliation there hey? :p Nowadays it's all about the money - fine them, make them pay for the search and rescue operation or pay monthly instalments to it for a year! :ashamed:

[rawfish111]

Not 100% sure what the answer is without restricting too many freedoms and people do learn through trial and error as most of us have had to learn what varying degrees of skill we have.

I think Sappers point is a very good one though #1 it's none of Mr Nimbie's damn business as he was tucked up in bed and #2 the repeat offenders thing *shakes head* some people will never learn and are a foil to natural selection.

I do think that many of us react strongly whenever we hear of dipsticks going off unprepared into the face of adverse weather then having to be rescued as in the nanny culture we live in these days it is only a matter of time before some well meaning (more like self serving and headline grabbing) but hugely ignorant politician gets the wind in his sails about it and starts campaigning for bans/restrictions/licenses/fees. As such they threaten us and our chosen leisure activities.

Some other good points on this thread too.

[Ashley Cawley]

Sorry just to be clear - I meant what I said in a jovial way, I wasn't suggesting it was the way forward :)

[-Tim-]

I believe people think that because they are not in some far flung-back-of-beyond land of dangerous animals and erupting volcano's that they are inherently safe, that and ignorance, ignorance that is of dangers, take Snowdon for instance a mountain that has a path, but it's a mountain all the same, I have seen families starting off on a winter walk in jeans and one tiny back pack between them. There was me with my ice axe and crampons and a full 30ltr pack.

Its not just mountains that can be dangerous, rivers are too, some lapsadaisy hire companies don't help either

Only last year on the river Wye I led a rescue of two adults and one child in a rented canoe, we were travelling down when my wife saw their canoe go into some trees and capsize, we diverted the rest of their group away from the trees, whilst I initiated the rescue, I ran to where we last saw them not knowing what I would find, fortunately when I got to them they were clinging on to a tree with the boat pinned. It took us a good ten minuets to free the upside down canoe. After I explaind that had the young boy or any of them were trapped inside the boat they would have died! all this on a benign river.

After they were safe on dry land and being looked after I whipped out the camera;-

If some one was behind that boat they could have been "pinned" between that and the branches of the tree, that is not worth thinking about!
https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/969264_528259753877265_733989889_n.jpg

using our gear
https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/r270/969223_528259767210597_577270843_n.jpg

the "canoeist" watching in disbelief on how stuck the boat was!
https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/5752_528259830543924_1495572863_n.jpg

Free at last!
https://scontent-a-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash2/418980_528259923877248_1644638614_n.jpg

The sorry state of the rental canoe, this, apparently was the best of the bunch!
https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/935997_528259970543910_1473326094_n.jpg

And the safety features of this boat
https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/943607_528259997210574_869614626_n.jpg

On another trip one of our group rescued three three canoes and their occupants.

Its not just on the Wye that this happens, whilst paddling with the Bridgnorth Canoe Club I chanced upon another stricken canoe, this one was trapped against debris which was wrapped against the bridge station, apparently the occupants were rescued by the Fire Brigade, its a good job Bridgnorth is a busy place or they could have suffered a lot more..
https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/482564_528382847198289_611047070_n.jpg

that Iphone was drowned, fortunately not like the occupants..
https://scontent-b-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/7241_528382883864952_573176239_n.jpg

Well I am glad to get that rant off my chest :)



Cheers
Tim



After