milbank or hand pump filter

[sartacus]

Hi Bushmates,

Could we discuss the pro's & con's between a Milbank bag and a hand held filter?

I know that water must still be boiled after filtration but which is better?

The bag is obviously simple in functionality and that there are no moving parts to fail; also the bag appears to be cheaper.

Are there situations where one is superior over against the other?

Thanks gang for letting me pick your brain,

Sartacus

[jus_young]

This is a topic that comes up every now and again, and to be honest the opinions always vary. Have a look on here and you will get an idea of the kind of responses you will get

http://www.naturalbushcraft.co.uk/forum/search.php?searchid=794679

Personally I have done away with high tech devices now, too prone to breaking, and now use a Milbank bag followed by a few drops of Aqua Sol.

Watch out for fake Milbank bags aswell. There are quite a few replicas out there that do not use the correct military grade canvas, they are just a load of rubbish. There is now a firm making new ones but at over £20 I would rather get an old surplus one at about £8

[Humakt]

The bag is obviously simple in functionality and that there are no moving parts to fail; also the bag appears to be cheaper.

Exactly.
You've answered the question for yourself.

As you highlight in your post, though, you'll still need to boil it to kill off germs. But neither filtration nor boiling will cancel out any chemicals. If you're here in the UK then that's the biggest problem you will be up against when it comes to using natural water sources - a lot of chemical run-off from farmland; either the fertilisers for agriculture or the additives put in animal feed being 'dumped' on the ground, and then both concentrating in water sources.
There are, of course, many places in the UK where this won't be a concern, but these will be very remote places, and most of the places where most of us go will have chemically polluted water.

[jus_young]

Something I posted some time ago on another thread -

For those new to the water collection and treatment scenario, always remember that there are two different stages to making water suitable to drink, one is filtration and the other is purification.

Filtration takes out particulate matter, for example leaves or fine grit. This can be done a number of different ways including the DIY plastic bottle stuffed with grass, sand and some charcoal from the fire. The process may also take out larger bacteria and pathogens but this is not guaranteed. The high tech filters that are now commercially available are just filters with the difference being that they are so fine that bacteria are also removed but not killed in the process unless something specific is contained within the filters construction to facilitate this. The drawback being with these can be a reduced flow due to the fine nature of the filtration media.

Purification is the process of killing the bugs, viruses and other harmful nasties. Again there are a number of options available, the application of various chemicals or UV just being two, but its the nasties that we cannot see that make us ill so these must be dealt with.

Something else to consider if you regularly drink from natural sources is the possibility that harmful metals may also be present but suitable filtration can remove these also. Charcoal is commonly used to take out odour and taste from water rather than aid in the filtration or purification process. Whatever methods you choose to use, just make sure that you choose your water source carefully and any sign of illness in the following days is checked out as some of those bugs can be quite serious!

[sartacus]

Quality advice, thanks dudes,

Jus - I tried the link you posted but it had no content.

Humakt - interesting blog, I will spend time looking. I also subscribed to your YouTube channel.

Respect...

[jus_young]

Jus - I tried the link you posted but it had no content.



Odd :confused:

Try it again, it comes up when I click on it but I have refreshed the link anyhow.

[sartacus]

It keeps saying

"no matches found"

?

[jus_young]

Search box on the top right, enter 'water filter' and the results will give you numerous threads. Seems that a search is only valid for a short time and won't post as a valid link for other folks to see!

[Adam Savage]

Bit late to the party here, but I'd go with Milbank bag.
As Jus points out, water needs to be filtered, then purified. If the water looks clear (i.e. no dirt, debris, small insects, etc.), then there is little point in filtering it anyway. Boiling water for 1 minute, on a rolling boil, will kill all pathogenic/parasitic/bacterial contaminants you will find in UK water. Chemical purification of some kind will be needed for chemical pollution, and heavy metals, etc.
Also as Jus says, check the source of the water. This can be as easy as knowing the history of the area, or looking around the vicinity. For example, if there has been mining in the area, it could have heavy metal content, or even other nasties associated with particular mining processes. If there is heavy agriculture in the area, pesticides and insecticides could be present.
Places like Dartmoor will generally be free from chemicals, or heavy metals, but will contain pathogens and bacteria if animals cross it, or die in/near it. In this kind of situation, if the water is visibly clear (a little brown tint is ok, as it's probably from the peaty soil), then you should be safe to just boil it, or drop a steritab into it.
Water from ponds, lakes, woodland streams, etc, will probably be cloudy with soil/silt/decaying matter (leaves/branches/plants), so filtering is necessary to remove the turbidity before boiling/steritabbing.

Hope that helps a little in your decision making :)

[-Tim-]

I won't try to point you in either direction, but will add some of my experiences with water purifiers so here is some food for thought....

Many moons ago I had a gravity filter made by Pre-Mac and over the following years used it a fair amount, with no tummy troubles at all, taking water from streams and lakes all over Snowdonia, make of that what you will. Pre-mac make a smaller one that would be ideal for occasional use HERE (http://www.livefortheoutdoors.com/Gear-Reviews/Search-Results/Accessories/Premac-Travel-Well-Pocket-/)

Once I could escape from campsites with taps again I chanced upon a Katadyn Combi for sale at a decent price, used it on a few rivers for coffee's and the odd slurp, now I am able to escape up north for a week at a time, wild camping by some body of water or another.
It is used more and more, (I even use it when wild-camper-vanning too when away from taps)

In 2012 we camped up by Loch Shiel where the water is crystal clear and Loch Lomond where it is nearly as clear and this is what happened to the ceramic filter....

Before cleaning...
https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/409171_315358785167364_1263397043_n.jpg
And after cleaning...
https://scontent-a-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash2/407292_315359621833947_561933024_n.jpg

Now in 2013 we paddled down the Spey, which had a fine no a very fine sediment which blocked up the filter very damn quick! resulting in the need to cleanse the ceramic filter every five minuets or so of pumping water through it.

This got me thinking about a Millbank bag as a "pre-filter" for my Katadyn?
But I guess this does depend on how fine the canvas material filters the water!

Another of the party had one of those UV purifiers.......that threw a wobbley and didn't work at all.

So in the end we boiled water for hot drinks (we guessed a "double boil" was more than safe) and had the time consuming filtered water for cold drinks.

-None I might add went into the whisky-

I hope this helps?

Cheers
Tim

[Adam Savage]

This got me thinking about a Millbank bag as a "pre-filter" for my Katadyn?
But I guess this does depend on how fine the canvas material filters the water!

Cheers
Tim

The Milbank bags are classed as a coarse filtration method, but all that means is it wont filter out microbiologicals, particles of heavy metal, and things like that.
If there are no chemical/heavy metal particles in the water to start with, anything that does get past the canvas will either be killed by the boiling/steritab, or (with silt) is so small it won't have any ill effects on the digestive tract. Also a lot of the silt like build up in ceramic filters, is often the part of the water that influences the taste as much as anything.

I'm not knocking any filtration systems out there, as some folk have digestive systems that are more prone to irritation, so the nano filters will help a lot with that.
I have a fairly hardy stomach, so have never noticed the difference between Milbank and other systems. I must add, 9 times out of ten I boil the filtered water, rather than use tabs, as I prefer warm drinks. Only on Dartmoor do I use tabs, as it's easier to drink from a bottle on the go :)

[-Tim-]

the part of the water that influences the taste as much as anything.

To be fair the Spey which I mentioned, has the greatest concentration of malt whiskies compared to the other whisky-producing regions and its all down to the water, which to be fair had a nice peaty flavor.


Cheers
Tim

[Adam Savage]

To be fair the Spey which I mentioned, has the greatest concentration of malt whiskies compared to the other whisky-producing regions and its all down to the water, which to be fair had a nice peaty flavor.


Cheers
Tim

You're absolutely right. I have relatives that live in Lossiemouth, which is just up the coast from Spey Bay. My uncle is always venturing the whiskey trail ;).
Even the tap water in the area seems to taste nice.
Despite being pretty peaty, Dartmoor water doesn't quite taste as good. Must be the matter contained in the peat itself.
It can put some people off from drinking it, due to the golden brown tint to the water. Most change there mind when you mention the uses of such water in whiskey though lol

[rik_uk3]

Bit late to the party here, but I'd go with Milbank bag.
As Jus points out, water needs to be filtered, then purified. If the water looks clear (i.e. no dirt, debris, small insects, etc.), then there is little point in filtering it anyway. Boiling water for 1 minute, on a rolling boil, will kill all pathogenic/parasitic/bacterial contaminants you will find in UK water. Chemical purification of some kind will be needed for chemical pollution, and heavy metals, etc.
Also as Jus says, check the source of the water. This can be as easy as knowing the history of the area, or looking around the vicinity. For example, if there has been mining in the area, it could have heavy metal content, or even other nasties associated with particular mining processes. If there is heavy agriculture in the area, pesticides and insecticides could be present.
Places like Dartmoor will generally be free from chemicals, or heavy metals, but will contain pathogens and bacteria if animals cross it, or die in/near it. In this kind of situation, if the water is visibly clear (a little brown tint is ok, as it's probably from the peaty soil), then you should be safe to just boil it, or drop a steritab into it.
Water from ponds, lakes, woodland streams, etc, will probably be cloudy with soil/silt/decaying matter (leaves/branches/plants), so filtering is necessary to remove the turbidity before boiling/steritabbing.


Hope that helps a little in your decision making :)

At UK altitudes you really only need to heat the water to above 70c to kill jimmy germs off, boiling for a minute is not needed. I bring water just up to a boil and its job done and off the heat.

Here is a handy chart showing the various altitudes and the temperatures that water reaches boiling points
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/boiling-points-water-altitude-d_1344.html Basically unless you over halfway up Everest getting water to over 70c is fine.

The Millbank bag as said by others removes a lot of the grit and muck from water, heat treatment will kill of the bugs and if you are concerned then also treat with tablets or a (at your own risk) a controlled amount of bleach or iodine.

I'm playing with a gravity fed inline filter and two 10l roll up water carriers and I'll take some pictures of the setup when I get the chance.

[Silverback]

What about spore forming bacteria.....? They can survive 70 deg C althought they may find it sufficiently hard to find nutrients in water to exist thus being less of an issue.

[Adam Savage]

At UK altitudes you really only need to heat the water to above 70c to kill jimmy germs off, boiling for a minute is not needed. I bring water just up to a boil and its job done and off the heat.

Here is a handy chart showing the various altitudes and the temperatures that water reaches boiling points
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/boiling-points-water-altitude-d_1344.html Basically unless you over halfway up Everest getting water to over 70c is fine.




What about spore forming bacteria.....? They can survive 70 deg C althought they may find it sufficiently hard to find nutrients in water to exist thus being less of an issue.

I know what you mean. Generally speaking, just bringing the water to a boil is sufficient, but the American CDC (centers for disease control) recommends 1 minute at sea level, and 3 minutes at Everest like altitudes. This is mainly because it's easy to see a rolling boil (you don't need a thermometer to check it's temp), and a minute (or three) will ensure a thorough boiling of even large pots and pans.

Not sure about spore forming bacteria.

[Silverback]

Well I'm highly unlikely to end up at altitude anymore and so far in the 30 years of drinking from streams/rivers with only boiling, milbank and puri tabs I'm not dead or full of parasites so I must be doing something right.......maybe it was the NBC WPU that saved me ;)

[Adam Savage]

Maybe lol.

Upbringing can play a large part in it too. If you used to get dirty as a child, and put all manner of things in your mouth (like a healthy child should), your immune system can deal with some of the minor bugs that others can't deal with.

[Silverback]

Major cause of most vomiting and diahorrea type infections is actually caused by normal flora found on the outside of us. A bacteria called Staphylococcus Aureus (staph A for short). While its outside its ok but when it gets inside us it breeds and causes the V and D

[Rasputin]

I'm playing with a gravity fed inline filter and two 10l roll up water carriers and I'll take some pictures of the setup when I get the chance. have been using this method albeit a home made rig (not filter) for over 30 yrs before that the finest denier tights/stockings I could get with a hankerchief inside to filter followed by boiling,tabs or bleach. And like Wayne Ime still here to tell the tale.

[sartacus]

Has anyone any suggestions where a filter like the one on this video can be obtained?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chCJ0U5U1XM&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[Adam Savage]

If you search for inline water filter, or gravity water filter, that should come up with some results. You'll have to ignore the domestic and garden pond results though.
Most of the "life straw", or "lifesaver straw" style filters, can be used in-line :)

Here is a version that does the same job, but if you haven't got the pressurised water bladder, you may just have to squeeze the bag gently...
http://www.alloutdoor.co.uk/hydration-filters/geigirrig/geigerrig-rig-100-in-line-filter.htm?gclid=CP-l8pr4grwCFYUewwodzWwApQ

http://images.alloutdoor.co.uk/1/1311248756_53.jpg

[Adam Savage]

Just found the web-tex version too, which is closer to the design of the Sawyer..
http://www.surplusandoutdoors.com/shop/army-surplus-uk/army-miscellaneous/new-all-in-one-water-purification-550441.html

http://www.surplusandoutdoors.com/images/product/main/INLINE-FILTER.jpg

[Paul De Fitter]

Hi guys
The millbank bag, once soaked, will filter down to 5 microns, you can also get Diesel (fuel) filters, quite cheap & they filter down to 1 micron.
I just use the millbank, easy to store, easy to use, nothing to break.

[sartacus]

Thanks for all your advice...

[Rasputin]

Ive used the aquamira frontier for a number of years and had no probs, you can use it as a straw or as a drip filter. when I use as a drip filter I pre filter with a circle of diesel filter bag made into a cone, it keeps large particles out of the filter prolonging its use

[alvino78]

any one tried this?
http://www.amazon.co.uk/SAWYER-MINI-WATER-FILTRATION-SYSTEM/dp/B00FA2RLX2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1396351584&sr=8-1&keywords=sawyer+squeeze

[Adam Savage]

any one tried this?
http://www.amazon.co.uk/SAWYER-MINI-WATER-FILTRATION-SYSTEM/dp/B00FA2RLX2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1396351584&sr=8-1&keywords=sawyer+squeeze

I've got one, and used it a few times. You NEED to make sure there is no sediment in the water, or it clogs up and needs back flushing to clear. I found with really dirty water, it was using more clean water to back flush, than I got from it.
Ok for clear streams that have microbial contaminants though.

[alvino78]

cheers adam!