The Subject Of Bad Language/Behaviour

[Adam Savage]

If you would like to discuss ANY aspect of our "bad language", "behaviour", or "conduct" policies, please feel free to voice your opinions here.

This is NOT an area to get mad, slate other members, or behave any differently than the rest of the forum, but we always appreciate CONSTRUCTIVE criticisms.

If this thread cannot be kept civil, and respectful of others, it will be closed and/or removed

[Rasputin]

Ive just looked it up and I was wrong they did not come into existance untill 1964 when I was 12 but I stick by original statement that *@# cant be really classed as profane in as much as the person reading it puts to it their own interpretation to the grawlix. Also that as the censors of the UK have allowed it in childrens literature, ie. comics since 1964 means that children of all ages read it daily. Again I apologise for any offence given but I just dont see it myself, but I did agree to the guidelines for members and I will abide by them, Ken

[happybonzo]

for the same reason, I didn't post my handy cut out and keep map to IKEA - too many nasty words
As the old expression has it "there's a time and a place for everything and this is not the time nor the place"

[Paul De Fitter]

In everyday life I find myself "effing & blinding" without thinking about it if I'm in like minded company, if I'm in polite company (the mother-in-law, the ol dragon) I try my best to talk respectfully.
On a forum when someone puts a swear word in, they have to think about it, take time to type, re read it then hit post.
So I guess that if a person leaves a swear word in, they have good reason to do so.

[Adam Savage]

Ive just looked it up and I was wrong they did not come into existance untill 1964 when I was 12 but I stick by original statement that *@# cant be really classed as profane in as much as the person reading it puts to it their own interpretation to the grawlix. Also that as the censors of the UK have allowed it in childrens literature, ie. comics since 1964 means that children of all ages read it daily. Again I apologise for any offence given but I just dont see it myself, but I did agree to the guidelines for members and I will abide by them, Ken

I totally understand, and you're 100% correct when you say "the person reading it puts to it their own interpretation to the grawlix". It's a way people can get the reader of the text to assume an expletive of their own, in a cheeky kind of way.
A young child reading a comic in the "good old days", would probably have imagined these words to be much different than a teenager these days, which can be part of the problem.
I think it's more of an issue when letters are included in the grawlix, that imply which word it means. The trouble is, it's hard to say no to one, but yes to the other, the same as some of the minor "swear" words. It's for this reason, that it's easier to say no to it completely, if that makes sense.



In everyday life I find myself "effing & blinding" without thinking about it if I'm in like minded company, if I'm in polite company (the mother-in-law, the ol dragon) I try my best to talk respectfully.
On a forum when someone puts a swear word in, they have to think about it, take time to type, re read it then hit post.
So I guess that if a person leaves a swear word in, they have good reason to do so.

Couldn't agree more. I often find myself swearing amongst fellow bushcrafters, around the fire, but around parents, nephews, and the general public, I try my hardest not to.
As you say, on the forum you have time to think about what you type, and time to edit it, if you've typed fast, or without thinking.

[Paul De Fitter]

Just had another thought, what if we changed the swear word to a neutral word & used that instead, a bit like this......
..I'l worm his worming worm with a stuffed worm & worm the worm out of him with no worming worm, if he comes round here again, the worm.....
I think you get the gist without actually swearing & every one will be happy.
:evilgrin:

[Adam Savage]

But that would fall into the "implied" category, the same as the grawlix. The implied instances can be the difficult ones, as it's all down to personal interpretation.
I'm sure the odd word replacement could be used, as long as it isn't too obvious, but if someone has taken the time to find an alternative word, then they could easy find another way to say their statement.
I think the best thing to do, is not type when you're too mad. There shouldn't be a need to use invasive language on this forum anyway. If there is, someone's doing something wrong lol.

[Chubbs]

There is no reason why 'extreme' swear words should ever be displayed on this forum at all. At times I swear like a Trooper, but I wouldn't think of including one as part of a forum discussion. We all know that kids use this forum and it shouldn't be used as a platform to improve their swear word vocabulary.

Kids are certainly not angels, and no doubt they know more at that age than we ever did. Times have changed, the way the younger generation communicate have changed but its still no excuse for bad language.

Grawlixes are fine by me and its my opinion that they should be used and continue to be used on this forum. You can't wrap the kid's up in cotton wool but there is a line that should not be crossed as far as bad language is concerned.

I wouldn't go as far as the death penalty but I would like to see the three strikes and you are out rule for offenders, with no chance of a return.

Its not difficult is it, its not brain surgery. All you are asking is to cut out the bad language, and if people can't follow this simple rule its time to ban them as they will never learn no matter how many warnings they are given.

[Rasputin]

There is no reason why 'extreme' swear words should ever be displayed on this forum at all. At times I swear like a Trooper, but I wouldn't think of including one as part of a forum discussion. We all know that kids use this forum and it shouldn't be used as a platform to improve their swear word vocabulary.

Kids are certainly not angels, and no doubt they know more at that age than we ever did. Times have changed, the way the younger generation communicate have changed but its still no excuse for bad language.

Grawlixes are fine by me and its my opinion that they should be used and continue to be used on this forum. You can't wrap the kid's up in cotton wool but there is a line that should not be crossed as far as bad language is concerned.

I wouldn't go as far as the death penalty but I would like to see the three strikes and you are out rule for offenders, with no chance of a return.

Its not difficult is it, its not brain surgery. All you are asking is to cut out the bad language, and if people can't follow this simple rule its time to ban them as they will never learn no matter how many warnings they are given.

T^

[Martin]

I'm not sure what the purpose of this thread is. It has been agreed by the moderating team (of which Adam is a key member) and Ashley that we will not tolerate swearing or the use of swear words or substitutes for swear words. As far as I'm aware, this position hasn't changed and is certainly not up for negotiation amongst the general population. This rule has served us well since the forum was introduced to compliment the NaturalBushcraft.co.uk website, which I can guarantee contains no swear words.

Might I respectfully suggest that, if you would like to use swearing, profanity or any other such means of communication, you leave the forum and take it elsewhere.

Martin

[paulthefish2009]

Not been on here for ages but totaly agree with you Martin.T^

[Rasputin]

A young child reading a comic in the "good old days", would probably have imagined these words to be much different than a teenager these days, which can be part of the problem. Oh Adam your not that naive, I knew exactly what was meant as a youth and kids are even more street now. I still cant see anything wrong with using # as long as its not part of abusive behaviour, but rules are rules and even if I dont agree I will bow down to them. Ive stated my opinion and will now bow out of this debate, Ken. ps 1 last thought thanks to Paul I cant call anyone a worm now as it may be misinterpreted, lol

[Ehecatl]

I'm not sure what the purpose of this thread is.
Martin

I for one am finding the thread very educational.

Proverbs 9:9 ~ Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be yet wiser. (N.B. Not everyone who has met me would say I'm wise!)

[Adam Savage]

I'm not sure what the purpose of this thread is.

I started this thread for a couple of reasons Martin. One, it's a subject that has been (and probably will continue to be) discussed on the forum, so rather than clutter up other threads with unrelated discussions, I thought it would be better to keep it contained.
The other reason for the thread, was to provide the forum members with the reasons behind the zero tolerance approach to bad language.
I was hoping that members can input their comments on the subject, and we can offer explanations, as it can be difficult to understand the reasoning behind our decisions.


As you say Martin "this position hasn't changed and is certainly not up for negotiation". I in no way intend this thread to be seen as a poll, or vote, just offer a little clarity on the subject.

Hope that remains clear to the forum members.

[FishyFolk]

All I can say is that you english speakers are very strange and sensitive about this. And it can be hard at times moderating myself, as there are words in my language that are perfectly innocent, that when translated to English you would see as a swear word...I have learned. Sometimes that makes it hard for me to form a sentence when I want to describe things.

[Rasputin]

I started this thread for a couple of reasons Martin. One, it's a subject that has been (and probably will continue to be) discussed on the forum, so rather than clutter up other threads with unrelated discussions, I thought it would be better to keep it contained.
The other reason for the thread, was to provide the forum members with the reasons behind the zero tolerance approach to bad language.
I was hoping that members can input their comments on the subject, and we can offer explanations, as it can be difficult to understand the reasoning behind our decisions.


As you say Martin "this position hasn't changed and is certainly not up for negotiation". I in no way intend this thread to be seen as a poll, or vote, just offer a little clarity on the subject.

Hope that remains clear to the forum members.

T^ agree, Incidentally I have never used grawlix' or swore on the forum (to my knowledge)

[Adam Savage]

Oh Adam your not that naive, I knew exactly what was meant as a youth and kids are even more street now. I still cant see anything wrong with using # as long as its not part of abusive behaviour, but rules are rules and even if I dont agree I will bow down to them. Ive stated my opinion and will now bow out of this debate, Ken

I used to read comics as a child, and there was a stage when I assumed these symbols stood for either sound, or words like "blast" and the such. Maybe it's because I was brought up by a pretty old fashioned family, and my family never swore, or exposed me to swearing.

I do see your point, but we must understand that there are many lifestyles out there, and to protect all of them, it's better to be over cautious :)

[Adam Savage]

All I can say is that you english speakers are very strange and sensitive about this. And it can be hard at times moderating myself, as there are words in my language that are perfectly innocent, that when translated to English you would see as a swear word...I have learned. Sometimes that makes it hard for me to form a sentence when I want to describe things.

We're aware it can be especially difficult in circumstances such as your's, and we greatly appreciate how well you self moderate in these instances. T^

[Martin]

All I can say is that you english speakers are very strange and sensitive about this. And it can be hard at times moderating myself, as there are words in my language that are perfectly innocent, that when translated to English you would see as a swear word...I have learned. Sometimes that makes it hard for me to form a sentence when I want to describe things.

I can assure you, Rune, that many native english speakers have difficulty in forming a sentence, both verbally and in writing, that doesn't include rude or offensive language.

Martin

[ADz]

http://www.upworthy.com/wtf-why-are-people-so-offended-by-swear-words

[Adam Savage]

That kind of misses the point of the whole thing. Yes our language is strange, and the way we use words is strange, but the context that the words are used in, and the meanings that are implied by them, are a totally different kettle of fish.

I think the author of the headline in that article was clearly missing the point that Mr Fry was trying to make. He was not saying it was "inoffensive" at all.

[FishyFolk]

I can assure you, Rune, that many native english speakers have difficulty in forming a sentence, both verbally and in writing, that doesn't include rude or offensive language.

Martin

Yes, I am aware of this, but it is sometimes very difficult to know what words will be percived as offensive language in English, when the same words in Norwegian could be used in a conversation with the most holy and conservatives of grannies, without causing any offense.

[Humakt]

What about euphemism and innuendo - are they acceptable?
Or am I just being a stupid front-bottom?*



*I know it's immature of me, but now I'm giggling like an idiot.

[NorthernYeti]

unless you have hurt yourself ie the old hammer to the thumb theres no reason to swear.... Scientists from Keele University found that letting forth a volley of foul language can have a powerful painkilling effect, especially for people who do not normally use expletives.
To test the theory, student volunteers placed their hands in a bucket of ice cold water while swearing repeatedly.
They then repeated the exercise but, instead of swearing, used a harmless phrase instead.
Researchers found that the students were able to keep their hands submerged in the icy water for longer when repeating the swear word - establishing a link between swearing and an increase in pain tolerance.
They also found that the pain-numbing effect was four times more likely to work in the volunteers who did not normally use bad language.

[Valantine]

Very very very sorry
It will not happen again
Rasputin you know what you are
A really not nice guy
:p

[Valantine]

unless you have hurt yourself ie the old hammer to the thumb theres no reason to swear.... Scientists from Keele University found that letting forth a volley of foul language can have a powerful painkilling effect, especially for people who do not normally use expletives.
To test the theory, student volunteers placed their hands in a bucket of ice cold water while swearing repeatedly.
They then repeated the exercise but, instead of swearing, used a harmless phrase instead.
Researchers found that the students were able to keep their hands submerged in the icy water for longer when repeating the swear word - establishing a link between swearing and an increase in pain tolerance.
They also found that the pain-numbing effect was four times more likely to work in the volunteers who did not normally use bad language.

They tested it on Mythbusters too, it worked for them.
Also there is a well used 4 letter swear word which is actually an acronym (spell checker is working :happy-clapping:) I won't put what it actually stands for on here as it may offend, but it involves procreation and requiring royal consent from a king.

[Adam Savage]

What about euphemism and innuendo - are they acceptable?
Or am I just being a stupid front-bottom?*



*I know it's immature of me, but now I'm giggling like an idiot.

That's a tough one. I think it depends how it was done, as in what was being referenced, the situation it was used in, and how it could be interpreted.

The best way is to avoid posting anything that could be taken out of context, or viewed as being offensive.

As I said, it's better to be over cautious, so if you are worried that what you say may be taken wrong, then try to find a way that wont be.

[midas]

There are Double standards applied to who posts n who Mods.
One can get a warning for "Its the db's".when two post up there is a reference to "mutts knuts",which goes unchalenged!.
Also one can get a weeks ban for a remark "taking the ****",Then if one reads many posts there are homophobic remarks n several other comments that have passed by.Rules are rules and should be obeyed and equally,applied!!

[Silverback]

o we really have to do this again ? No swearing, no grawlixes that's what has been asked.

I see the forum a bit like being asked into someones house.....their rules not yours, or the neighbours, or similar.

Mike you have been told time and again its not personal its just been missed.... the mods and ash do this for zero gain and I for one have better things to do with my time than trawl years of posts editing out potentially offensive remark just to satisfy your feelings of injustice.

You served your ban now forget it and move on.

[Martin]

The mods often rely on inappropriate comment being reported by users. Midas, I'm not aware that you've ever reported anything and I get an email as soon as anyone does. If you feel unfairly treated please report inappropriate content.

Martin

[OakAshandThorn]

I could never understand how people could get so heated in online forums that a flame war erupts. Are we so immature that we have to unleash a bombardment of personal attacks just because the other person is "wrong"? There's no need for name calling even in debates...if you cannot keep a civil discussion, you have no business being on the forum in the first place.
I know some may not have a particularly favourable opinion of the mods here, but as I see it, they have done everything they can to ensure that the rules of this forum are enforced, without taking sides - and for this, I applaud them for keeping NaturalBushcraft a friendly environment. :)
Places like a certain well-known US forum have become a 'Wild West' zone, with mods zapping you for simply disagreeing over a trivial matter. Be glad N.B. isn't like that.

[Paul De Fitter]

and for this, I applaud them for keeping NaturalBushcraft a friendly environment.

Here Here, well said that man

Worming great stuff ;)

[Adam Savage]

There are Double standards applied to who posts n who Mods.
One can get a warning for "Its the db's".when two post up there is a reference to "mutts knuts",which goes unchalenged!.
Also one can get a weeks ban for a remark "taking the ****",Then if one reads many posts there are homophobic remarks n several other comments that have passed by.Rules are rules and should be obeyed and equally,applied!!


The mods often rely on inappropriate comment being reported by users. Midas, I'm not aware that you've ever reported anything and I get an email as soon as anyone does. If you feel unfairly treated please report inappropriate content.

Martin

As Martin says. We heavily rely on members to report anything they see, and do not agree with. There are many posts on the forum, and none of the mods have time to read every single one.

Reports are kept completely confidential, so no one will know if you submit a report regarding the content they share.

I understand how it can feel like it's double standards, but this genuinely isn't the case.



I could never understand how people could get so heated in online forums that a flame war erupts. Are we so immature that we have to unleash a bombardment of personal attacks just because the other person is "wrong"? There's no need for name calling even in debates...if you cannot keep a civil discussion, you have no business being on the forum in the first place.

I couldn't agree more.


I know some may not have a particularly favourable opinion of the mods here, but as I see it, they have done everything they can to ensure that the rules of this forum are enforced, without taking sides - and for this, I applaud them for keeping NaturalBushcraft a friendly environment. :)
Places like a certain well-known US forum have become a 'Wild West' zone, with mods zapping you for simply disagreeing over a trivial matter. Be glad N.B. isn't like that.

Thank you for your support. It's not easy to keep things friendly, but we do our best :)

[Chubbs]

Right, I think its about time that we put this to bed. We could argue the proverbial all night and not get any further with this discussion.

If it gets to the stage that members are reporting every single grawlix, naughty word or something that make the vicar blush, give up, find another hobby and forum to stress. I really can't be bothered to read this post any more, its not what its really about, is it.

To the forum members who have never met the moderators before, pop down to Cornwall for a meet sometime. These guys are the salt of the earth and its a pleasure to join them around the fire.

Lets leave the problems, squabbling and bitchiness to the other bushcraft orientated forums on the internet.

[Silverback]

....Kind of counts me out then I live in Yorkshire ;)

[Chubbs]

....Kind of counts me out then I live in Yorkshire ;)

Not if we, us, or me organise a 'meet' for the middle of next year to celebrate 10,000 members on the NBF.

We should have a look at a place somewhere near the middle of the country and go from there. I'm sure that we could find a place that would allow fires, camping and grawlixes !!.

[midas]

All this is very childish.

[Silverback]

All this is very childish.

Would you care to enlighten us further Mike ?

[Adam Savage]

Ok, I think this thread has now run it's course. The reasoning behind the moderators opinion has been explained, and we've highlighted the use of the report feature again.

We're all here to enjoy a common interest, so please keep that in mind, when posting.
We all have our own opinions on things, which is a great thing, but we all have to respect these varying opinions. Try to stay objective in any discussions, and try to appreciate we all have to be a little flexible at times.

I'd like to extend our thanks, for all the support members have shown for Natural Bushcraft, and the understanding in the matter of conduct and other areas.
We want everyone to benefit from the forum, and the knowledge shared by it's members, and we'd like to keep the atmosphere as calm, and collected as possible.

[jus_young]

Oh my, I disappear for a few hours and miss all the fun!

Just like to add if I may that the view points in many ways prove the problems that we have with regards to language issues. The very fact that a comment or word posted can be seen as acceptable by some yet offensive to others highlights the impossible task of negotiating what should be allowed. That being said, there is no need for that type of language. I, like many others, use such language myself at work and have been known to release a few profanities around the campfire, but never at home in front of my children and certainly not when undertaking my roles with the youth of my home town. I am also thankful of the fact that when shown by example, these very children are highly unlikely to use such language when in our charge.

I for one am reassured to know that if my children decide to sit with me when looking through this site that they are unlikely to find anything not to my liking, and I thank the members on this forum for doing their best to keep it that way. I like to think that us Mods are pretty forgiving in the way in which we deal with this issue in that no hasty bans are imposed, but individuals are reminded of the guidelines. I know that other forums are not so understanding and that permanent bans are a reality.

Thankyou Adam for dealing with this issue, unfortunate timing for me I'm afraid with a 12 hour working day and an Explorer meeting with a group of well behaved teens, and thanks to all you good folks too.