Bio Ethanol liquid + soot

[Peaks]

Hi all,
I'm trying bio-ethanol liquid in my alcohol stoves instead of meths.

Its great - apart from the sooty deposits. Can it be diluted like meths to reduce the soot? Any advice/thoughts?

Thanks in anticipation

[Dreward]

My question is....How much of a problem is soot deposits when only camping for a few days ?.....If the inside of the pan is clean, surely that's the important part....

[Peaks]

Its not a big deal at all............. ;)

Was just wondering if it was possible to reduce them

[Dreward]

If your ask a Gas Fitter about gas combustion he'll rant on about the amount of Oxygen needed to safely burn the Hydrocarbon fuel known as Natural Gas or Methane...the same rules apply to other Hydrocarbons...if the Oxygen/Fuel balance isn't right at the point of combustion you get Soot and other Nasty products...the point of combustion is the important factor.....and this could mean simply the size of the gas jet holes in your Meths burner....

[Peaks]

Thanks Dreward.....its an Evernew burner, don't think I'll be experimenting with the hole sizes. Maybe its not the best fuel for it.

Any other thoughts anyone - as I said its not a big deal, I'm just curious.

[Dreward]

Just had a brainwave Peaks....perhaps, a means to adjust the size of the gas jet holes to suit different fuels....

[midas]

Not had any problems in any of my stoves production or homemade.selection!
Thought a bit of black..was good for conduction/absorbing heat?
Also Ethanol,is a safer alternative,to the "other liquid fuels"

[jus_young]

Got me intrigued. I use bio ethanol all the time in my trangia and never had any sooting issues

[Dreward]

The size of the hole in your gas jet nipple in your boiler at home is carefully calculated to give the right amount of Natural Gas at a given pressure. This results in an ideal Oxygen/Fuel balance at the point of combustion, thus, giving a Blue flame. It is a Yellow flame that tells us the combustion is inefficient and Oxy/Fuel is not balanced...the result...Soot + Carbon Monoxide (Killer). So, if your stove is designed for Meths the jet burner holes Should be calculated accordingly and when you use another fuel it still burns, but, Not as Efficient.....How do I know all this info I'm ranting on about....I trained as a Corgi Gas Engineer.

[Peaks]

Thanks for the input....appreciate that soot is the result of incomplete combustion.

I get some soot on pots with meths unless I dilute it slightly.

I've tried diluting the bioethanol fuel with 10% water as I do with meths - seems to have made a drastic difference reducing the soot on the pot. Been using it in the Evernew, and a couple of other simple meths burners as a trial. Not tried it in the Trangia yet.

[Dreward]

My brainwave idea was to have a double disc arrangement on the burner...both drilled with jet holes...this would allow a rotary movement to throttle the size of the jet holes or to have two, three different jet hole sizes....

[jus_young]

Just had another weekend on Dartmoor and burnt about 500ml of bio. Have not washed my pot for the last three or four outings as I only boil water and no sooting.

[Dreward]

Looking at the titanium evernew it appears to have two jet sizes.

[Peaks]

Thanks fellas.......

The Evernew does have 2 size of jets - they are considerably bigger than those in a Trangia or Tatonka. Its burns hotter and faster than either of these stoves.
The smaller top set can be blocked if you put your pot on top of the burner instead of using a pot stand. Think it its beyond my fettling skills to try an fabricate anything to adjust the jet sizes Dreward :o

Am trying the fuel with a Tatonka burner, will try and borrow a Trangia.

Will do some more testing + report back....

Am wondering if I've got a bad batch of fuel

[midas]

I always use La Hacienda,Bio Ethanol,95% ethanol,Especially for indoor bio-ethonal fireplaces.Bought from B n Q.

[Dreward]

Another thing to consider is the stove the burner sits in...this effectively shrouds the burner and can restrict the air trying to get in for combustion...an answer to that is to drill more holes around the base to increase air-flow....

[Peaks]

Have played with the holder + windshield. No difference.

[Dreward]

I've just read that it is virtual impossible to blow out and with you saying above it burns hotter/faster than other burners it has been designed to get max heat from Meths....being made of titanium may also Increase the rate at which the Double Chamber causes evaporation of the liquid fuel...in turn a larger jet hole is calculated, so, consequently this may be causing a rather large amount of bio-ethanol to be streaming out of the jet and giving a Fuel Rich mixture at combustion....a method of damping the amount of fuel would be required...Try adding more water than you have to the mix or some other additive, perhaps, a drop of Meths....Watch you Don't Singe Your Eyebrows !!

[midas]

^You might have something there,Dreward.mix in a drop of Meths.
The bio I use is mixed with meths.only a dash or so to make it "Purple",rather than looking like water....
Perhaps I hit the magic mix by luck?????lol.

[Peaks]

Cheers fellas, might give that a try. You might be on to something about the Evernew being designed for meths/alcohol.

Have borrowed a trangia burner - getting quite yellow/orange flames when using the bio-ethanol. Need to try it it meths and see what colour the flame is - guessing it should be blue/purple??

Will try to get to B+Q over the weekend + see if I can get a bottle of their bio-ethanol.

[Dreward]

You've also got to accept, as you've mentioned above, that from brand to brand the composition of the bio fuel can be different, so, if you have success experimenting with a particular brand stick to it or take note of it's composition on the label. Another thing that can alter from say Trangia burner to Trangia burner is that the manufacturing process may not produce jet holes that are all the same size...this is a fact of life when anything is produced in a factory and so they work within a Tolerance of Size....

[midas]

Just a thought!!how about enlarging every other hole in the burner one drill size,as a compromize.???

[Dreward]

Your 'magic mix' would work with one hole, but, not the other...so, you still get soot....

[Dreward]

Just a point to clear up confusion...Ethanol is Alcohol....Bio-Ethanol is Alcohol that is derived from Bio-Mass (Wood, Vegetation, etc)...but, is still Alcohol that gives you Beer Goggles....Methylated Spirit is a totally different type of Hydrocarbon fuel and has it's own properties when it comes to combustion that are different to Ethanol.....

[Dreward]

I've measured the size of a Trangia jet with a vernier and it is in the region of 0.040" (inches) or 1mm...this does not appear to be a carefully calculated jet size as it is probably a near enough standard size for manufacturing purposes....This will explain why Jus_young has had success and no soot with Bio-fuel on his Trangia, as it happens, the jet is more suited to ethanol than meths it seems...!! Pick the bones out of that one.....

[FishyFolk]

I've measured the size of a Trangia jet with a vernier and it is in the region of 0.040" (inches) or 1mm...this does not appear to be a carefully calculated jet size as it is probably a near enough standard size for manufacturing purposes....This will explain why Jus_young has had success and no soot with Bio-fuel on his Trangia, as it happens, the jet is more suited to ethanol than meths it seems...!! Pick the bones out of that one.....


Methylated and denatured spirits is simply ethanol that has an additive that make it unsuitable for drinking. It should not alter the nature of the ethanol at all.

[Dreward]

Ethanol needs twice as much Oxygen as Methanol for complete combustion....Ethanol with 10% Methanol added (Methylated Spirits) gives a totally different combustion equation, hence, the random appearance of soot on your pots when you use Ethanol and considering the jet hole in your burner has Not been calculated accordingly.

[Peaks]

Hello all,
Tried a different brand of bioethanol (fuel4)...........what a difference :campfire:

Reckon I may have had a duff batch....

Many thanks for all your input, much appreciated.

[jus_young]

I have used fuel4 before with no issues, currently using ecofuel again without any problems. I have 15 litres of la hacienda waiting for future outings so hope that burns without sooting

[Peaks]

Hi all,
Came across this article - found it interesting. The other articles on the site about using bioethanol might be of interest too.

http://www.ekofuel.org/blog/running_trangia_on_bioethanol/

[Dreward]

Ahem....it's Alcohol remember....95 %.....check this...the other 5% can be water or other derivatives of distillation.....

http://www.the-home-brew-shop.co.uk/acatalog/Alembic-Pot-Still-Condenser-Still-Spirits.html#.VR72oyx0zb0

[Dreward]

Sugar + Water + Yeast....give it recommended heat....put it through distillation = Alcohol.....in the region of 95 %....Have Fun....(Brewing for Fuel is NOT Illegal)

[Peaks]

:happy-clapping: Don't think I'll be brewing my own.............. but thanks for the thought!

[Tigger004]

I have used la hacienda a reasonable amount (4 to 5 litres) and found no issues