Ferro, hard or soft?

[Magicdave]

I found this video a few weeks ago and have eventually re-found it since. It took a bit of looking.

I've had a ferro rod in my pack for years, it was always a back up item. I checked it out when I bought it, packed it away for emergencies and used my lighter ever since.

More recently I changed my thinking to that, if I ever was in an emergency I would want the simplicity of a lighter. So now my "Clipper lighter" with 2 spare flint holders (3 methods of starting fire ;)) are in my backup kit and I use my ferro rod on a daily(ish) basis.

Over time I have seen lots of videos online where people have really worn out at the tips of their ferro rods. This was weird to me. This is where the video comes in. There are rods on the market with different percentages of materials. Duh, of course.

My rod was bought long ago, probably on eBay or Amazon for £1 to £3. It is one of the harder ones, see the video for details. So pro's and con's on soft or hard, what do you prefer and why?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnrOhfry-0o

[ian c]

Most of the Ferro rods I have are Swedish army issue which are quite hard, I have bought a few different ones from other places that were rubbish and 1 or 2 were good, If I can strike sparks using my knife on the rod that is good enough for me, I also carry a magnesium block just in case.

[FishyFolk]

Most of the Ferro rods I have are Swedish army issue which are quite hard, I have bought a few different ones from other places that were rubbish and 1 or 2 were good, If I can strike sparks using my knife on the rod that is good enough for me, I also carry a magnesium block just in case.


I have one of the swedish ferro rods too. But I preffer the cheap, and softer ones. I seem to get bigger/ hotter spraks from them. The ferro rods will still last me for years.
A good point is that you need to lerarn how to use a ferro rod for iut to be effective. Sp using one regularily is a good thing.

[David_JAFO]

hello,
Dave it maybe worth having a browse in your nearest branch of Sports Direct (Scotland) for the cheap or bargain bucket Karrimor ferro rods. These throw off a great shower of sparks, the only drawback is the loose fit into the thumb grip but still very effective. I have a couple of Woodlore Ray Mears ferro rods, LMF, & spare rods on the shelf including the Karrimor. Pocket lighters the Clipper as well as a Primus Power Lighter III. I was taught way back in the 1980's by the best old school survival escape & evasion. Taught various methods of fire lighting & to carry duplicated methods in your kit & on your person incase you lose 1 method you still have another. I recall in the survival tin the books of paper matches, these were intentionally part of the contents or 3 ordinary matches, & if you were lucky as an alternative waterproof matches *not lifeboat matches. I do understand methods have changed but then, it was actually *living off the land making do with the bare essentials & knowledge of fire lighting by whichever means available. I remember lighting a friction fire from a piece of dry wood prepped using the razor blade from the E&E tin & a length of cord found by a fence. It's no mean feat but did manage to create an ember from the friction & get a fire going.
Regards
David

[Pootle]

I have only used two different rods. One lmf which is great. gives big hot sparks or a shower of sparks depending on how I use it. and a cheap one off fleabay which is terrible. I can't get a good spark from it whatever I use. The cheap one feels a lot harder. I don't know if that means anything.

[Durham Bushcrafter]

Any that will make a big fat shower of sparks.... i keep a little sharp grind on the back of my knife to strike my ferro with......it wears pretty quick....i have the mora survival with OEM ferro rod

[Magicdave]

A good point is that you need to lerarn how to use a ferro rod for iut to be effective. Sp using one regularily is a good thing.

For sure, I've just made my fist char cloth and that is easy enough to light, but feather sticks are harder than they look on video's.


it maybe worth having a browse in your nearest branch of Sports Direct (Scotland) for the cheap or bargain bucket Karrimor ferro rods. These throw off a great shower of sparks, the only drawback is the loose fit into the thumb grip but still very effective.

This sounds great, I'll pick one up next time I'm passing. Strangely the loose fitting grips is what I like here, I'll take it off and make a fated handle.


The cheap one feels a lot harder. I don't know if that means anything.

I kind of think it might mean something, maybe the desire/trend is to have the soft type. Mine is chap and hard and I'm fine with it. But I use a hacksaw blade (teeth side) as a striker. Maybe it't time to try both.

[Wolf man]

What are your suggestions for 'soft' firesteels?

I've only ever had the LMF one and like them, but would like to try a few soft ones. Any links would be appreciated

[OakAshandThorn]

I have a Light My Fire scout , I'd say it's pretty hard, but I like it. Other than that, I don't have much experience with other firesteels, except the cheaper ones (Coughlan brand, Wallie World specials, etc.) which I think are not worth their price. I have heard that the softer firesteels (which may not necessarily be the cheap ones) have a higher magnesium content, so they won't produce a shower of bright sparks, but the sparks that do come off glow for a brief moment, like mini 2-second embers.

[Magicdave]

I have heard that the softer firesteels (which may not necessarily be the cheap ones) have a higher magnesium content, so they won't produce a shower of bright sparks, but the sparks that do come off glow for a brief moment, like mini 2-second embers.

Spot on, both he soft and hard are made up of cerium, iron (Ferro) and magnesium. The harder ones have a higher ratio of iron to magnesium. The softer a higher ratio of magnesium to iron. So the chips of magnesium that are scraped off continue to burn when they land.


What are your suggestions for 'soft' firesteels?

In the video I linked in the first post he mentions some names, at just after 5:20 and going on from 7:10. He doesn't name them all but shows a selection that you may be able to find out from their visual design. He has the harder ones on screen left and the softer on screen right.

[OakAshandThorn]

Spot on, both he soft and hard are made up of cerium, iron (Ferro) and magnesium. The harder ones have a higher ratio of iron to magnesium. The softer a higher ratio of magnesium to iron. So the chips of magnesium that are scraped off continue to burn when they land.
Aha!! That explains a lot :). So the softer ones are like carrying a stick of magnesium and a firesteel all in one...heck, I think I might try one out to experiment with :D.

[Magicdave]

So the softer ones are like carrying a stick of magnesium and a firesteel all in one.

I've not tried either the soft or the magnesium/ferro rod combination. I have the feeling that it would probably sit somewhere in-between the 2. I'm going to try one too. I'm also going to try the magnesium block.

Recently I seen a video online and someone had one of those magnesium blocks with the ferro rod stuck in along one side. It also had a compass set into the block. It had the manufacturers logo printed on it, but for the life of me I can't remember what company it was. has anyone seen these, I thought it would be a great addition to my emergency kit.

If anyone does know, I'm assuming the compass is removable to get it away from the iron for use. If this could be confirmed it would also be good.

[David_JAFO]

hello,
I was up in town centre Argyle Street Glasgow recently have a browse at the details.. http://www.naturalbushcraft.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?9167-Cheap-Ferro-Rods
Regards
David

[Magicdave]

They may not have them any more David. A couple of weeks back I was in 3, maybe 4 "Sports Direct" shops. Including the Argyle Street store. I never found any ferro rods in any of them, but that doesn't mean they definitely don't have them.

Being a guy I never actually asked, and I'm really not great at big shops. Ikea, on a Sunday, once freaked me right out to the point of claustrophobia. These Sports Direct shops aren't the easiest to navigate.

[David_JAFO]

hello,
"These Sports Direct shops aren't the easiest to navigate". Aye your right there, that's to confuse the shop lifters. The staff were very helpful when I was navigating between the isles, as my eye caught something else.. & then something else.. :p the Karrimor ferro rods can be ordered in BTW but I was more interested in the bargain bucket knock down priced ones & I'm not a BG merchandise fan ferro rods but if they're on reduced priced, I'll pick it up & goes on the trade blanket.
Regards
David

[DuxDawg]

There were some good posts in this thread:
http://www.naturalbushcraft.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?5692-Where-to-get-firesteels

I've used ferros from nine different companies and notice little difference between ferros. The skill of the user, the scraper, the choice of tinder and the prep of the tinder matter more than which ferro in my opinion.

[Magicdave]

There were some good posts in this thread:
http://www.naturalbushcraft.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?5692-Where-to-get-firesteels

I've used ferros from nine different companies and notice little difference between ferros. The skill of the user, the scraper, the choice of tinder and the prep of the tinder matter more than which ferro in my opinion.

I reckon all those 9 must have been either hard or soft. The difference in magnesium/ferro content is undoubtedly different.

But I was surprised how much difference the striker makes. Shouldn't have been, it does make sense.

[DuxDawg]

Cheers O Dave of the Magicness. (You were called something similar to that in another thread and, as you can plainly see, it stuck with me.) In an effort to get off on the correct footing, please allow me to explain that I am merely engaging in a conversation on a subject I have quite a bit of experience with and not attempting to rile anyone. Not at all.


I reckon all those 9 must have been either hard or soft.

Good guess. In the vid McCann shows UST's StrikeForce and Coghlans' ferro on the hard side. They are among those I've used and I consider them soft. Less sparks and more globs of molten metal than some of the others I've used. Interestingly UST's SparkForce is the softest ferro I've used while the StrikeForce is middle of the pack.

To a certain extent I believe the diameter of the ferro makes a difference in whether it is considered hard or soft. Most people unconsciously bear down more on the thicker ferros. Harder scrapes and sharper scrapers naturally produce more globs.

Also, how you scrape it matters. Not referring to speed, force or angle - all of which are important - here but rather WHERE you scrape your ferro. I believe that the outside of the ferro is harder than the inside. If you scrape around the outside you get more sparks and less globs than if you always scrape the same spot.

Further, the LENGTH of your scrapes matters. Shorter scrapes produce less globs. Longer scrapes yield sightly more sparks yet many more globs of molten metal.

In general: Higher speed produces more sparks, less globs. Higher force produces more globs, less sparks. Higher angle (closer to 90 degrees) produces more globs, less sparks.

As you can now see, there is actually quite a lot going on when we use a ferro.

I have not yet used the Light My Fire which seems to be the iconic hard ferro. Nor the Exotacs that McCann considers hard. Nor have I rigged up a device that exerts the exact same forces on every strike using the same scraper at the same level of sharpness. Thus I cannot provide a statistically valid report. Merely my own observations from igniting hundreds of fires with many dozens of tinders in all kinds of conditions over several decades with a bunch of different ferros and scrapers.

I have used many items as the scraper with ferros. Freshwater clam, mussel, oyster, etc shells. Glass, rocks, sandpaper, tin cans, knives (of many types of steel and levels of sharpness to their spines and edges), axes, awls, saw blades (teeth and spines), carbide steel, etc.

I have kept a piece of fatwood and a ferro completely submerged in water for two weeks. Took them out, shook them off, scraped off some fatwood, scraped the ferro three times and had flame. I have produced flame with a ferro on green wood fresh from several types of trees in Spring that were still literally dripping sap. Though I do not recommend it, I have made flame with a ferro on the aerial roots of Poison Ivy. As good as birch bark but one whiff can give you a potentially life threatening systemic allergic reaction so again, not a best practice. I have used all kinds of plant fluffs, stems and leaves. Many types of wood from green to punky. Many fungi. Many, many uncharred and charred natural materials. Also several manmade materials such as steel wool, plastic, etc.

In short, if it can burn at all, you can ignite it with a ferro. It all comes down to a good scraper and proper processing.

Allow me to iterate once again that people are free to do and believe as they choose. Do not misunderstand, I am not trying to force my opinion on anyone. I am merely engaging in a conversation on a subject I have quite a bit of experience with. I have logged thousands of hours outdoors practicing all kinds of skills from Paleo to Modern. I see so many struggling needlessly where a few sentences or paragraphs would make all the difference in the world to their safety and enjoyment. I firmly believe it to be very important to share what we learn. Everyone can learn something from and teach to everyone else. I certainly am no exception to that!! In short, I believe we should be like rivers, not ponds. Never stagnant, always taking in and always flowing out.

Dunno, guess I've been flamed too much on other forums but I already see torches and pitchforks...


The difference in magnesium/ferro content is undoubtedly different.

I don't doubt that. I just don't find enough difference in them with the ferros I've used so far to need to change tinders or processing based on the (so far in my experience) slightly more or less sparks or molten globs.


But I was surprised how much difference the striker makes. Shouldn't have been, it does make sense. I too was initially surprised at how much of a difference the scraper makes. Now I rate the scraper as the #1 most important part of being succesful with a ferro. Processing of the tinder being a close second. With great sparks, poor tinders will catch. With poor sparks, even the best tinders are tough to ignite.

A quick tip for novices is to press the ferro down into the tinder. Many hold the ferro above their tinder and, from their perspective, it seems as though tons of sparks are hitting the tinder. But... when you watch from the side you can see that very few of the sparks are actually reaching the tinder. What a difference a lil perspective can make!

A tip for those afraid they'll knock over their fire lay while igniting the tinder is to ignite a small bit of tinder to the side. When it is on fire, then add it to the fire lay.

Happy Trails y'all.

[Magicdave]

n an effort to get off on the correct footing, please allow me to explain that I am merely engaging in a conversation on a subject I have quite a bit of experience with and not attempting to rile anyone. Not at all.

Apologies if my post came across the wrong way, I'm just engaging in the conversation too. I was really just pointing out that the differences on how rods are constructed definitely make for a difference.


I do get what you're saying in your previous post...


The skill of the user, the scraper, the choice of tinder and the prep of the tinder matter more than which ferro in my opinion.

...but I also think it important to point out that the compounds are different.

You have some great points in your most recent post, especially the rod diameter and stroke length. I hadn't even though of the diameter. A larger diameter is obviously going to offer a greater surface area.

Stroke length has me thinking, I'm wondering how heat build up affects thing.

And by the way, your knowledge is much appreciated.

[DuxDawg]

Apologies if my post came across the wrong way, Not at all. Thank you for taking mine in the spirit of sharing and learning as I intended.


I'm just engaging in the conversation too. For which I am grateful.


I was really just pointing out that the differences on how rods are constructed definitely make for a difference. Which I have heard from many people over many years so there must be something there. I really do need to try a Light My Fire and an Exotac one of these days. Which brands do you consider soft and which hard? Have you tried the UST and Coghlans? I use those the most.


...but I also think it important to point out that the compounds are different. I have seen different ratios listed on various sites about the history or manufacturing of ferros thus it is absolutely so. Yet no chart linking brand to composition. That would be very useful indeed.


You have some great points in your most recent post, especially the rod diameter and stroke length. I hadn't even though of the diameter. A larger diameter is obviously going to offer a greater surface area. Thank you.

Scraping the same spot every time maximizes the area in contact with the scraper as well. With the longer stroke I see more "digging" from unequal pressure during the stroke. Many ferros develope a "U" shape over time. That is the digging I am referring to.

Because of this I have moved to making approximitely 1" long scrapes, always on the same area, no matter which ferro is used. Funny how I used to scrape the entire length of a 5"L x 1/2"dia ferro and now 1" of a 1/4" ferro is enough. With knowledge comes skill, with skill comes joy.

Also with the longer stroke comes the "stutter", "ladder" or "washboard" marks (a series of ruts or undulating high and low spots) that develope over time on some ferros. I believe this latter phenomenon has more to do with the scraping technique than any other variable. (Certain people produce it on most of their ferros, others seldom do.)

An interesting similar effect is produced by scraping with the teeth of a saw blade. While this method initially produces impressive sparks, over time it makes that area of the ferro almost unusable. Therefore I recommend flat scrapers.


Stroke length has me thinking, I'm wondering how heat build up affects thing. An interesting line of inquiry. I've mostly been looking at volume of material scraped off, speed and pressure on the long strokes. I wonder if more sparks are generated at the begining, middle or end of the stroke? (Suspect the beginning, or at least it seems that way.) Which part generates the most globs? (Guessing the middle due to the "U" shape.) I'd bet when using the pinned method (pinning the tinder down with the ferro) that the end of the stroke produces the least of both due to the fear of bashing one's knuckles!


And by the way, your knowledge is much appreciated.
Whew! Thanks! :D :camping:

[Magicdave]

Which brands do you consider soft and which hard? Have you tried the UST and Coghlans? I use those the most.

I've only used the same single ferro rod, that was the reason I started the post, to find out more.

I do have knowledge of metals, alloy's the purpose behind Alloy ratios for different purpose. So I understand the reasoning between the softer and harder options.

My curiosity initially came from something I had seen, that you have now answered. I seen various rods online (images/videos) that had a really short stroke at the tip with deeper wear than others. When I stumbled across the video I linked to I reckoned this must be the reason.

But have brought something else up...


Because of this I have moved to making approximitely 1" long scrapes, always on the same area, no matter which ferro is used. Funny how I used to scrape the entire length of a 5"L x 1/2"dia ferro and now 1" of a 1/4" ferro is enough. With knowledge comes skill, with skill comes joy.

I scrape the full length and have experienced the juddering in the past. But now I use a, wait for it... junior hacksaw blade section. Teeth side too.

Looks like I'll be moving away from that then. I reckon I'll give the shorter strokes a go, I've never tried it.

[David_JAFO]

hello,
I was reading this with interest. I'm old school survival escape & evasion, we were taught using a ferro rod with an additional tubular cable terminal end added (see image) as a kind of thumb grip. A lanyard of paracord was attached with a small cut off section of a standard hack saw blade, the end section cut at an angle, as this could be used as a ferro rod striker blunt edge or serrated end, a small saw, screwdriver, & sharpened end a small skinning blade. I've used all methods to great effect.
Regards
David

13257

[DuxDawg]

Greetings Magicdave,

Do you have an opinion on how much magnesium it would take to make the most globs? How much iron to make it hard enough to have all sparks and no globs? Be interesting to find out.

Still on your first ferro? Oh my, I've worn out dozens. A couple strikers for F&S also. But then I've been playing with fire since the 1970s having grown up on a homestead heating only with wood burning stoves. Was known back then for one match fires using a paper match and natural tinders. Lighting several fires each day for many years gave me no shortage of practice! Amazing what you can do when you put your mind to it. Also a lot of tent camping and backpacking over the years. Tons and tons of dayhiking. Been using magnifying lenses since the late '70s, ferros since the early 1990s and F&S since the 2000s.

Experimenting with marginal materials puts the hurt on equipment quick. I can get flame with a ferro in five scrapes or less most of the time with well prepped good tinders. Sometimes it takes 200 plus scrapes on marginal ones like wet green wood. Same with F&S. Ten strikes or less on chars most of the time yields an ember, 50-100 strikes on NUTs. (Natural Uncharred Tinders that will catch the sparks from flint the rock and steel producing an ember.) Wore off 1/8" of steel on strikers a few years in a row, all from striking sparks off rocks, finding and perfecting several NUTs. Now I'm up to 16 NUTs here in the Upper MidWest and still looking for more. Milkweed fluff and ovum are my go to from August until May of each year when gathering and using on that hike.

Back to ferros. I know! Don't the teeth make great sparks? But then, the ruts develope to the point that the teeth are contacting at most 1/8 of the surface area they did on the first scrape. Uh oh! Now they don't work so well. Don't ask me how I know this... nothing to see here... please move along... lol.

Seems you are well on your way on what is a typical path in the evolution of our skills. We go from "good enough" to wondering why it works to perfecting them with a variety of materials in all conditions.

As your knowledge and skills grow, hiking in the outdoors becomes just like walking down the aisles of a store. Want water? Look for water loving plants, here they are in aisle 7. Want fire? Find dry materials on sunny hillsides here in aisle 8. Want cordage? These milkweed stalks were naturally retted over the winter here in aisle 9. Want shelter? The thick stand of spruces in aisle 10 will do in a pinch. Want food? Find ramps (wild leeks with a garlic/onion flavor), wild ginger, cut-leaf toothwort (horseradish) (these plants often grow along river bottoms) and trout in aisle 11. Hot and thirsty? Find immature milkweed silk (juicy and sweet) and wood sorrel (lemony) in aisle 12. Instant trailside lemonade!! Way cool feeling hiking along and seeing all the useful resources ready to hand.

Cheers!

[Magicdave]

I'm old school survival escape & evasion, we were taught using a ferro rod with an additional tubular cable terminal end added (see image) as a kind of thumb grip. A lanyard of paracord was attached with a small cut off section of a standard hack saw blade, the end section cut at an angle, as this could be used as a ferro rod striker blunt edge or serrated end

Excellent, I'm going to see if I can find those.


Still on your first ferro? Oh my, I've worn out dozens.

I've had the same ferro rod for a long, long time. I've been a hillwalker for many years. Most of the time a long distance hill walker. The longest I done in terms of distance and time was Glasgow West End to Balmaha, climbed Conic Hill while shooting a video, bivvy'd out on the beach (before it became illegal) and walked back in the morning. 2 days earlier I cycled the same route, climbed the hill (running) getting time lapse footage of the journey (running up and down the hill) and cycled home again.

Anyway, for years my ferro rod was kept in my emergency kit. Doing long distance stuff there is little time spent still for much. Mostly cooking, or rather re-hydrating and boiling water, was done over gas. But fires at times for proper cooking. This year I decided to change things up a bit. I spend more time chilling, and the ferro rod has become my primary fire lighting device with the lighter now living in my emergency kit.

I'm very at home in the outdoors, but a new set of knowledge and skills are developing, most of which are in their very early stages. I look at what's around me in a different way now.

[DuxDawg]

Howdy David_JAFO,

How did y'all secure the ferro to the terminal end? I've found that all glues give up after a while, though some last longer than others.

Aren't hacksaw blades great?!! As the striker with F&S, scraper with a ferro, scraping a multitude of natural materials (fungi, wood, etc) into useable tinder, scraping animal hides, scraping to separate fibers for cordage, spine sharpened as a knife, etc. Always have some pieces of hacksaw on me.

Speaking of scraping tinders, I've found that wood scrapings ignite with flame or ferro much more readily than curls/feathers. Most times lucky to get curls/feathers to ignite with a ferro in less than 20 scrapes. Scrapings from the same piece of wood often ignite in five or less.

[DuxDawg]

Funny thing about distance hiking is I think I missed more than I gained. Well, younger then and had an itch in my legs!

I've always experimented with the materials around me. When I started slowing a little and digging into my surroundings more my skills increased in depth and variety quite a bit. F&S and wild edible plants magnified this greatly.

[David_JAFO]

hello,
Firstly Magicdave *Chronic Hill LMAO.. Conic Hill I've been up there a few times myself. The first time I did it was with the Fairbridge Drake Fellowship who also did Operation Raleigh, Outdoor Pursuits from Sighthill community in Glasgow. I was a Civie instructor spent time with the fellowship also taught the Duke of Edinburgh Award scheme with them. I spent one summer walked from Glasgow to the Isle of Skye & I've cycled too. DuxDawg How did y'all secure the ferro to the terminal end? I've found that all glues give up after a while, though some last longer than others. the ferro rod fitted no problem without epoxy/glue etc.. can be crimped with ease for removal of the rod too. I've used EvoStik called serious glue it's waterproof & transparent it hold like nothing else, just a *very small amount is required. The original issue ferro rods for escape & evasion purposes were crimped.
Regards
David

[Magicdave]

hello,
Firstly Magicdave *Chronic Hill LMAO.. Conic Hill I've been up there a few times myself. The first time I did it was with the Fairbridge Drake Fellowship who also did Operation Raleigh, Outdoor Pursuits from Sighthill community in Glasgow. I was a Civie instructor spent time with the fellowship also taught the Duke of Edinburgh Award scheme with them.

Hey don't mock Chronic hill, watching the sunset over Loch Lomond from its lowly summit is one of the the most beautiful sights I've ever seen in my life. Actually, after following the Kelvin Walkway from Botanic Gardens to Milngavie then the West Highland Way path to Balmaha in one day (missing out the up and over Chronic Hill route) a climb up the wee hill doesn't seem so wee, that I'll tell you.


I spent one summer walked from Glasgow to the Isle of Skye & I've cycled too.

Ok, now you make me jealous. That sound like a fine time.

Something I always wanted to do is a 2 part thing. Walk the West Highland Way as fast as I can and see what time I can do. Then go back and spend 1 month, nice and relaxed, walking it. Just taking it easy, stopping for a few days ere and there and living in hotels for a day or 2 every now and again.

[Magicdave]

I forgot to add, I used to take pleasure in pointing out to people I met on the summit that you can see the Wallace monument in one direction and Inverkip power station in the other direction from the summit.

But now Inverkip is gone.

[ian c]

I have used hot melt glue in the past to glue a ferro into a piece of antler and it seemed to work, somewhere at my parents house I have one of the old issue flint an steels and it has a strip of metal back on it with the tubular bit with the lanyard hole.

[Dreward]

I bought a ferro rod with terminal and piece of hacksaw blade, as mentioned, from a camping shop many years ago I don't know if it was hard/soft, but, it was in my rucksack top pocket for quite a while until one day I found it had completely disintegrated, for some reason, to dust....

[DuxDawg]

Howdy Dreward. That is most likely due to electrolysis. That is to say, I am unaware of any other circumstances under which a ferro will disintegrate.

If a ferrocerium rod is in contact with another metal, moisture and salt or something acidic, it will disintegrate due to electrolysis. Also, soy sauce alone can destroy a ferro. Water alone will not affect a ferro. I soaked a ferro in a plastic bucket of fresh water, with no other metal in there, for two weeks with zero disintegration. The oxidization layer fell off and settled to the bottom of the bucket. After that, no change. Have no doubt I could have left it in much longer. I ran that experiment after reading about some guys on another forum expressing concern that their ferros would disintegrate while on a three day fresh water kayaking trip. Made me curious.

Here's a vid on electrolysis and ferros. http://youtu.be/XhPyig4ra40

Thanks for the replies on securing a ferro to a handle David_JAFO and Ian C. Always interested in other's experiences.

[jus_young]

And don't leave them in contact with tomato puree or sauce. My son had a tomato sauce sachet burst on his ferro and it ate it completely to nothing

[David_JAFO]

hello,
ian c I recall cheap made versions of these flooding the market same design etc.. after a few strikes of the hack saw blade along the ferro rod, there's was virtually nothing left bar an indent. The issue version *was better. Aye hot glue sticks. EvoStik serious glue I applied a few beads & I mean beads of this to fixings & I've tried everything to prize the fixings apart.. yes deffo serious glue :wink:
Regards
David

13259


I have used hot melt glue in the past to glue a ferro into a piece of antler and it seemed to work, somewhere at my parents house I have one of the old issue flint an steels and it has a strip of metal back on it with the tubular bit with the lanyard hole.

[DuxDawg]

And don't leave them in contact with tomato puree or sauce. My son had a tomato sauce sachet burst on his ferro and it ate it completely to nothing That is amazing. Apparently a ferro's kryptonite is anything salty and/or acidic.

Wiki lists the composition of a ferrocerium fire starter as: Cerium 38%, Lanthanum 22%, Iron 19%, Neodymium 4%, Praseodymium 4%, Magnesium 4%. Since that only adds up to 91%, I wonder what the secret 9% is.

Soy is one of many substances that is used to induce a patina on high carbon steel knives. Unlike rust, patinas are a naturally self limiting form of oxidization. Thus it seems clear that iron by itself will not cause this disintegration. Nor have I noticed it with magnesium, though I don't recall dunking any in soy nor tomato puree. Therefore I wonder if it is the Lanthanides (Cerium, Lanthanum, Neodymium and Praseodymium) that are particularly susceptible. Perhaps simply being multimetallic makes ferros so susceptible to electrolysis.

That the manufacturer coats ferros before shipping now makes additional sense. I have heard from several sources an assertion that all ferros are made in one factory in China. Salt water finds its way everywhere during ocean voyages.

Very few in American outdoorsmanship circles advocate coating ferros in order to protect them. Interestingly it is mainly those in coastal areas. Most of them say they use clear nail polish. I previously thought it entirely unneccessary. Since I normally have an assortment of salt, soy, ketchup, etc in my cook kit, I am beginning to think it might be prudent to coat the previously used portion of my backup ferro.

What an interesting turn this thread has taken.

[ian c]

I once had a small ferro rod made by a well known brand and I kept it with my ID tags taped together which I wore around my neck, after about a month I noticed that there was a grey dust coming from the end of the rod so I took off the tape and found it was pitted I tried to strike it with the back of my Mora but some of the pits were rather deep and the rod broke into 2 bits, another of my ferro rods that was in my sea fishing box was just a pile of grey dust, I learnt then to put a layer of nail varnish on them.

[Dreward]

Thanks for the electrolysis tip DuxDawg....I'm now wondering if a ferro being in contact with another metal e.g your knife, etc, in your rucksack could cause electrolysis if moisture from the atmosphere condenses at the point they are in contact...? It may explain ian c's ferro experience above...metal ID tags....

[David_JAFO]

hello,
What about the Ph. balance of skin, the ferro rod coming into contact with both the metal & skin body sweat? :confused2: that is bound to cause some reaction as I've notice previously the I.D tag chains discoloured slightly, either contact with skin sweat direct or through moisture from the clothing. What about the detergent used in washing the clothing too? worth a thought.
Regards
David


Thanks for the electrolysis tip DuxDawg....I'm now wondering if a ferro being in contact with another metal e.g your knife, etc, in your rucksack could cause electrolysis if moisture from the atmosphere condenses at the point they are in contact...? It may explain ian c's ferro experience above...metal ID tags....

[DuxDawg]

Good thoughts y'all. Moisture plus another metal might. Salty or acidic substances seem to be the biggest culprits.

In Ian's case, the salt in his sweat. Being in contact with another metal while also in contact with a moist, salty and/or acidic substance hastens things. I'd bet the worst of the pitting was where the ferro was in contact with the dog tags. Further that there was some grey powder, but comparatively little pitting, where sweat alone was in contact with the ferro.

[FishyFolk]

Yeah, my first ferro-rod , an LMF I left in my tackle box. When I wanted to use it again it was all pitted and had a hole straight trough at the tip. I imagine some salt water droplets had hit it, and that set things in motion. Anyway, all the damage was at the tip, so I chopped the handle off, made a new handle and stuck the ferro rod in the handle tip in. It still sits in my hi-teck fire kit...but now in a water proof bag :-)

[Dreward]

Electro-plating....involves a bath of fluid, metal cathode, metal anode...I think it is the cathode that erodes away....or in this case the ferro....

[DuxDawg]

...so I chopped the handle off, made a new handle and stuck the ferro rod in the handle tip in. It still sits in my hi-teck fire kit...but now in a water proof bag :-) Clever that. Well played sir, well played indeed. :happy-clapping:

[David_JAFO]

hello,
Slightly off topic.. I found this Rolson http://www.rolsontools.com novelty keyring mini ruler useful as a ferro rod striker. Our local DIY store had these novelty mini tool keyrings on the counter for sale at £1.00 each in the shape of various mini tools drill, saw, spanner etc.. the steel ruler caught my eye. A friend of mine bought one & was using this today when we were walking along the river Avon (South Lanarkshire) Bushcraft stopped for a brew. The ruler is 5cm in length marked with 1cm increments like a ruler.. doh.. My friend produced the keyring which we tried & tested as a ferro rod striker. Both edges work with the ferro rod throwing off a great shower of sparks & the blunt serrated end works as a tinder scraper *tried with some Amadou tinder & the opposite flat blunt edge on examination this could be sharpened for a mini blade tool for shaving fire sticks for tinder too. Optional remove the complete keyring & add a lanyard for use with the ferro rod. Ok it's a novelty item but it has potential as a ferro rod striker as it's steel. I might just go back & buy one myself..
Regards
David

13261

[Magicdave]

I was wondering wy there was a coating on the rods It must either relate to the manufacturing process or is it as added after for a reason.

Anyone know, maybe it's in some way related to stopping this issue?

[DuxDawg]

Greetings All,

I finally purchased a LMF Army 2.0 and have been using it for several weeks now. Here are my thoughts.



*blush*

*sheepish look*

"What for?" you may ask.

For many years I have maintained that there is no significant difference between the so called hard and soft ferrocerium firestarters. Having spoken with dozens of people and watched countless videos on YouTube, I can say that I have done my online research. Many of these people include Coghlans and UST StrikeForce ferros among the hard ferros. This further cemented my "no significant difference" thoughts. However, a few videos, such as certain ones from Ray Mears, Paul Kirtley and Magnus Anderson, showed them using a rocking motion or an extremely short stroke on the end of their ferro which I was unable to replicate with any combination of my dozens of scrapers and ferros after hundreds of attempts. This planted the seed of doubt that led us to today.

Now, I have not only researched ferros online. Far, far from it. I have started literally thousands of fires with ferros over the last 25 years using hundreds of manmade and natural tinders in all conditions throughout the year here in the Upper MidWest. Further, I have used ferros from at least 12 different models, from at least 6 different companies and with 5 of those products I have completely worn out more than one of each of them. Obviously I am more qualified to speak on ferros than most. Indeed, for several years now I have felt quite confident that my conclusions about hard and soft ferros were correct.

Until now.

Yes, despite all that effort and experience, I was wrong. Very wrong.

Please allow me to take a moment and back up a bit. Recently as I was hemming and hawing over what to order from Amazon.com, I decided to add a Light My Fire Army model. For clarity's sake, this is the one I purchased: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00440VIYY
The product description on its Amazon page is: "Light My Fire Swedish FireSteel 2.0 Army 12,000 Strike Fire Starter with Emergency Whistle". Now, I was not expecting any surprises when I purchased this. Figured I knew what I'd be getting: a ferro that functioned exactly the same as all of my other ferros. However, there was still that small seed of doubt. So I figured it was high time to find out for sure. Boy, am I ever glad I did!!

Hard ferros, for I now know they do indeed exist, not only yield more sparks than soft ferros, they are also much easier to scrape and require a much shorter stroke. Although they produce less molten globs than soft ferros, they still produce some. One can scrape a hard ferro in the same manner as a soft ferro (very hard and fast) and get similar results. More sparks and less globs to be sure, yet still plenty of both. Most interestingly to me, it seems that a hard ferro requires 1/5 the force and 1/3 the speed to produce its sparks. Also an extremely short stroke. To an experienced adult, these differences are trivial. Where I think hard ferros will shine the most is kids and other inexperienced users. For them I cannot recommend the LMF Army ferro highly enough.

No, I will not be getting rid of my soft ferros. For me they still work just fine. Experienced as I am, I can make any ferro get up and dance with any tinder. What I will be doing from now on is strongly encouraging noobs and those teaching children to start with the LMFs.

Let me close with two thoughts. Why did it take me so long to try an LMF?? Why was there no one out there with facts instead of opinions? It seemed to me that everyone either used a hard ferro or used a soft ferro yet no one used both. It seemed to me then that the differences were more in their heads than the ferros. Yet, I can now assure you that once you have used both, you will forevermore know without any doubt whatsoever that there are hard and soft ferros and significant differences between them.
Happy Trails Y'all!! :camping:

[DuxDawg]

I reckon all those 9 must have been either hard or soft. The difference in magnesium/ferro content is undoubtedly different.m Turns out you were correct all along. I have heard that LMF and other Swedish ferros have more iron. Here in the States almost all ferros sold are soft.

[DuxDawg]

Anyone else notice a difference in the performance of LMFs as you consume them? :confused:

So far I have used 1/8 of the material the whole length of the ferro along one side and half way through at the tip. Tip is starting to have a pronounced hourglass shape. I get more sparks, and much more easily, along the outside of the ferro. The closer I get to the center, the more the LMF acts like a soft ferro. (More pressure and speed needed to get sparks, more globs and less sparks.) Does not appear to be a homogenous alloy. Perhaps a coating or heat treating? Interesting.

If the harder outside is only 1/8 of the diameter of the ferro or less deep, then LMFs are not even close to being worth the money. Here in the States it is $17 for a LMF Army 2.0 while I can get a Coghlans that is the same size in all dimensions for $4. Can pick up an almost twice as large 1/2" x 5" soft ferro on eBay for $7.

Hard ferros like the LMF do seem like they would be easier for people to learn on, especially kids. However, since every tinder a LMF will ignite a soft ferro will also, to my mind price is the dominant factor.

[OakAshandThorn]

Anyone else notice a difference in the performance of LMFs as you consume them? :confused:

So far I have used 1/8 of the material the whole length of the ferro along one side and half way through at the tip. Tip is starting to have a pronounced hourglass shape. I get more sparks, and much more easily, along the outside of the ferro. The closer I get to the center, the more the LMF acts like a soft ferro. (More pressure and speed needed to get sparks, more globs and less sparks.) Does not appear to be a homogenous alloy. Perhaps a coating or heat treating? Interesting.

If the harder outside is only 1/8 of the diameter of the ferro or less deep, then LMFs are not even close to being worth the money. Here in the States it is $17 for a LMF Army 2.0 while I can get a Coghlans that is the same size in all dimensions for $4. Can pick up an almost twice as large 1/2" x 5" soft ferro on eBay for $7.

Hard ferros like the LMF do seem like they would be easier for people to learn on, especially kids. However, since every tinder a LMF will ignite a soft ferro will also, to my mind price is the dominant factor.
That's interesting...both of mine are still hard in the centre (LMF Scout 2.0 and LMF Scout oak handle).
Pricey indeed, even online the best I can find is $16 for the Army/Original.
I think I might give Coghlan's another chance. I never really liked how fast they seemed to wear out (especially on the magnesium fire strikers), but perhaps I was using them wrong. For their price, they are certainly tempting :).

[jus_young]

I have only ever used LMF versions so cannot make a comparison to other makes but have always found them consistent with their striking. The only thing I tend to do is rotate them rather than continuously striking the same face. Maybe it is just a personal thing, I don't really know, but I find I need less pressure and get slightly better results from striking a face that has not broadened too much in its profile.

Oh, and of course, over here they are not very expensive.

[DuxDawg]

That's interesting...both of mine are still hard in the centre (LMF Scout 2.0 and LMF Scout oak handle). Good to know. I've only used the one so mine might be a fluke. Might be an Army vs Scout thing too. Hate to buy another if it is only hard around the outside though.

Pricey indeed, even online the best I can find is $16 for the Army/Original. Best I've found is $13 + S&H at MVO or $17 shipped from DLT trading through Amazon. http://www.manventureoutpost.com/products/W%7B47%7D-Built%252din-Emergency-Whistle-FireSteel-Army-2.0-Light-My-Fire-S%252dFSAR2%252dBLISTER%252dORG-Fire-Starter-Orange-12%2C000-Strikes.html

I think I might give Coghlan's another chance. Best I've found is $3 + S&H at MVO. http://www.manventureoutpost.com/products/Coghlans-1005-Flint-Striker-Fire%252dStarter.html

I never really liked how fast they seemed to wear out (especially on the magnesium fire strikers), but perhaps I was using them wrong. I'm not a fan of Magnesium Firestarters, aka MFSs. Nothing the magnesium shavings will ignite that a ferro won't. Takes minutes with a MFS, seconds with any ferro. Because they are made of an alloy, MFSs range from tough to ignite to will not burn. Several years ago I soaked several $2 MFSs from Harbor Freight in boiling water for a few minutes and took out the ferros. Use the ferros and hacksaw blades all the time. Toss the magnesium alloy block in campfires to amuse people. They glow green for a while before they get going. Don't look once the light becomes white, burning magnesium can flash blind you.

[DuxDawg]

I have only ever used LMF versions so cannot make a comparison to other makes but have always found them consistent with their striking. Hmmm, interesting. Makes me twice as curious about mine. Also about the 2.0 vs the Original.

The only thing I tend to do is rotate them rather than continuously striking the same face. I scrape all my ferros in the same spot every time. Leaves most of the protective coating on and each scrape gets me into a wider area thus more material removed per scrape.

I find I need less pressure and get slightly better results from striking a face that has not broadened too much in its profile. I am finding the same results only I believe it is because the outside of my LMF is different from the inside. Much less speed, pressure and length of stroke needed with more sparks than globs generated when scraping the outside vs the inside of my LMF. I experience the opposite of all of the above with soft ferros. Now that I've scraped more than 1/8 the diameter into the LMF in that one spot, there too. The rest of my LMF still scrapes like it is brand new, so it's not age (only three weeks old! But, more than 30 tinders and more than 100 fires), exposure to air or any other substance.

Speaking of speed, pressure and length of stroke; aren't LMFs just a joy to scrape? Ridiculously light, short, tiny little scrapes produce enough sparks to ignite primo tinders. Crazy to use such a feather light touch and quick twist of the wrist. (Like quickly turning a key.) Guess I've spent too much time forcing suboptimal tinders to ignite with showers of molten globs from soft ferros.


Oh, and of course, over here they are not very expensive. Go on, rub it in! lol

[jus_young]

And next week I have 28 Scouts all using LMF for fire safety sessions. There may be one or two that will bring cheaper brand ferros but after they have struggled for a while I will guide them the right way.

[OakAshandThorn]

I'm not a fan of Magnesium Firestarters, aka MFSs. Nothing the magnesium shavings will ignite that a ferro won't. Takes minutes with a MFS, seconds with any ferro. Because they are made of an alloy, MFSs range from tough to ignite to will not burn. Several years ago I soaked several $2 MFSs from Harbor Freight in boiling water for a few minutes and took out the ferros. Use the ferros and hacksaw blades all the time. Toss the magnesium alloy block in campfires to amuse people. They glow green for a while before they get going. Don't look once the light becomes white, burning magnesium can flash blind you.
We used to ignite little sticks of magnesium in high school for a chemistry class :evilgrin:

[Midge_Fodder]

I usually find its what you scrape it with rather than the rod itself. I use the freshly ground back edge of my blade and never had a problem with any of them. I suppose it's all down to technique rather than gear 99% of the time.

[FishyFolk]

The ones I use are super cheap, no brand ferro rods. Never had a problem with them. Just need anything with a sharp edge as a scraper an spark they do.
Refuse to pay 13£ for an LMF when for me the no brand ones work just as fine and will cost me less than 3£ so I can buy 4 or 5 of them for the price of an LMF.

But then again...when I light a fire for myself, I usually go for the good old flint and steel, just for the fun of it.

[DuxDawg]

I find I need less pressure and get slightly better results from striking a face that has not broadened too much in its profile. You may be on to something there. The above portion of your post stuck with me and I have been experimenting with it the last few days. As mentioned earlier, scraping where the ferro is still round is giving me better sparks more easily than where I have worn it flat.

The interesting development is when scraping the edge of the flat part where it returns to being round I am getting more sparks than I have ever seen before!! Basically the end of my ferro now looks like the letter "D". When I scrape the upper left or lower left corners of the "D"... the shower of sparks is incredible. Three or four times as many as when scraping the round portion, ie the middle right portion of the "D".

Completely defies logic. Totally the opposite of my working premise for decades that more surface equals more material removed equals more sparks and globs. That premise has held true and proven useful for decades - on soft ferros. Hard ferros seem to be a whole new animal.

Perhaps "less is more" with hard ferros. Most intriguing...


Kudos on teaching the kids! Fun, ain't it? Well, it is always interesting!

[DuxDawg]

I usually find its what you scrape it with rather than the rod itself. For the most part that has been my experience as well. A great scraper has a noob looking like a pro in a short time. In this case I am finding some differences between a "hard" ferro (LMF Army 2.0) and "soft" ferros (UST StrikeForce, UST SparkForce, Coghlans, axeprice on eBay, etc and the ferros on Coghlans, Coleman, Harbor Freight, Doans Magnesium Alloy FireStarters.) using several scrapers. (Edges and spines of knives, saws (hand, bow, hacksaw, etc), axes, shovels, putty knives, razor knives, chisels, etc, also dozens of types of rocks, glass, ceramic, fresh and sea water shells, tin cans, carbide sharpeners, various types and grits of sandpaper, etc.)

I use the freshly ground back edge of my blade and never had a problem with any of them. Sharp spines of knives are one of my favorites also!

I suppose it's all down to technique rather than gear 99% of the time. Absolutely. An old pro can make almost any gear look good, while a noob can make even the most optimal gear and circumstances look horrible. The case of hard vs soft ferros seems to be in the 1% and may be the exception that proves the rule.

Cheers mate!

[DuxDawg]

The ones I use are super cheap, no brand ferro rods. Never had a problem with them. Same here. I have used a lot of ferros and was able to be successful with each brand and size on hundreds of tinders. Had found such little difference between them that I was not expecting much from the LMF.

Refuse to pay 13£ for an LMF As did I for a long time. However, vids by Ray Mears, Paul Kirtley, Magnus Anderson and others showing the scraping technique where you barely move the scraper right at the tip of the ferro just stuck in my mind. Extremely difficult to do that with any soft ferro. I tried hundreds of combinations of ferros, scrapers and form attempting to perfect that technique. Just couldn't be done. Got me thinking, "Maybe there is something about LMFs that is significantly different from the dozen models of ferros I have used so far." Turns out, there is.

The UST SparkForce is the easiest of the soft ferros to do that technique with, but even then it is neither easy nor consistent. Such a joy to do that technique with a LMF!! Can use less than a one inch stroke with featherlight pressure and what is to me really slow speed and still have enough sparks for primo tinders such as cottonballs, birch bark, fatwood scrapings, dry grass, etc. Crazy easy. Barely get any scraped material off a soft ferro, and 9 of 10 times zero sparks, using that technique.

By the way, I have been playing with a variation on what they do. They start the scraper about an inch back from the end and push with their thumb. I hold the thumb holding the hard ferro near the end and twist the scraper like quickly turning a key in a lock. Gives plenty of sparks and is even less likely to upset the tinder pile.


But then again...when I light a fire for myself, I usually go for the good old flint and steel, just for the fun of it. You betcha! F&S is my favorite for sure. Intensive playing with ferros lately has interrupted my exploring tinders and techniques with flint the rock and steel, but not replaced it. I have gathered many natural materials that are now waiting to be played with in order to learn their characteristics with all forms of ignition.

Happy Trails my friend! :camping:

[FishyFolk]

I got curious and put it to the test myself. I had no problem creating sparks with my no-brand el-cheapo firesteels starting just 1 cm from the tip. However, the force I had to use doing the same with the LMF, was slightly less. But hardlyt worth the price difference, making it cost 3-4 times as much. So I will keep using the ones I am using, and probably replace them with more of the same. But then, maybe the chap ones I have just happen to be very good quallity. Have often found that price has got nothing to do with quallity...


My Army LMF however, do reside in my "The manure has levitated and is flying at warp speed towards the fan" bag of dirty tricks to get a fire going, should I ever need it. But then I'll probably just use the Bic lighter resideing the the same bag, hehe

Anyway, I have practiced with other tinders, but birch bark, which exist in such abundance that there are hardly any other trees here, works so well, that this is the only tinder I use. Always lit at first or second spark...well tenth if if it is raining...well...uh....50th some times...but by then the BIC ligher is out...allong with the ranger bands...lol

Anyway, see no reason to change my way for now :-)

[jus_young]

Been teaching the boy how to use a good old fashioned flint and steel this evening. We both have them, mine being a more recent purchase so I don't have to pinch his Dave Budd forged one. He decided that this was going to be his method of fire lighting when the rest of the Scouts are using ferro rods. He just has to be different!

[midas]

We used to ignite little sticks of magnesium in high school for a chemistry class :evilgrin:

I used to take pictures with it Before flashguns.....

[DuxDawg]

I got curious and put it to the test myself. I had no problem creating sparks with my no-brand el-cheapo firesteels starting just 1 cm from the tip. However, the force I had to use doing the same with the LMF, was slightly less. Would you say your no-brand are a hard ferro like the LMF or a soft like a Coghlans, UST StrikeForce, etc? I can get sparks from the tip of soft ferros but it is like 1 in 10 (with the USTSparkForce it is 1 in 6) whereas with the LMF it is 1 for 1.

So I will keep using the ones I am using, and probably replace them with more of the same. Same here. However I *am* enjoying experimenting with the LMF. So far there are no tinders or methods I cannot make the LMF work with. It is only with the tip push scraping method that the soft do not work well for me.

Since I can get three 1/2" x 5" (1,27cm x 13cm) ferros for the same price as one 3/8" x 4" ( 0,95cm x 10cm) LMF Army 2.0 the value is just not there with the LMF. Other than for testing or demonstration purposes I see no reason to buy another LMF. Still glad I got the one though.

Have often found that price has got nothing to do with quallity... I have found that to be mostly true. Seems like we get ripped off at the high and low ends of the price scale. Somewhere in the middle is where I usually find the true value of low price and high performance.

My Army LMF however, do reside in my "The manure has levitated and is flying at warp speed towards the fan" bag of dirty tricks to get a fire going, should I ever need it. But then I'll probably just use the Bic lighter resideing the the same bag, hehe :happy-clapping: ROFLMAO!! Very well put. :cool: Absolutely. Always carry a Bic whether EDC, hunting, dayhikes, through hiking, etc. Wet or dry, hot or cold, buried in mud for a year... Bics are hands down the best. Plenty of ways to dry the mischmetal rod in them if we are in a hurry (will usually dry in your pocket within a half hour) and to start a fire when they are out of fuel.

Another benefit of being skilled with F&S is every NUT (Natural Uncharred Tinder that will catch a spark with flint the rock struck against steel - there are at least two dozen around the world and several are abundant) and every char will ignite with an empty Bic or any ferro.

Anyway, I have practiced with other tinders, but birch bark, which exist in such abundance that there are hardly any other trees here, works so well, that this is the only tinder I use. The outer barks of the several types of birches around here are in the Top Five tinders for sure. Unfortunately there are several pests, such as birch leaf miners and bronze birch borers, that are decimating our beloved birches.

Always lit at first or second spark...well tenth if if it is raining...well...uh....50th some times...but by then the BIC ligher is out...allong with the ranger bands...lol LOL! Yeah, I quit talking about "One Scrape" fires with a ferro and "One Strike" fires with F&S after one sarcastic noob too many obnoxiously "busted" me for needing two. :ashamed: Of course it was perfectly ok that it took them more than 50. And was completely forgotten that I achieved One Strikes a dozen times in front of them before the single two strike. :rolleyes: Now I try to remember to give a range like "less than five" or "less than twenty".

Anyway, see no reason to change my way for now :-) Me neither. Only change for me is that for noobs and kids I will recommend a LMF as the way to start.

[DuxDawg]

Been teaching the boy how to use a good old fashioned flint and steel this evening. We both have them, mine being a more recent purchase so I don't have to pinch his Dave Budd forged one. He decided that this was going to be his method of fire lighting when the rest of the Scouts are using ferro rods. He just has to be different! Good on him! (and you!) Can't be ahead of the pack until you separate yourself from the herd. ;)

I have learned the most about the outdoors primarily from three hobbies: Wild Edible and Medicinal Plants, F&S and Tracking. One could substitute, or better yet add, Friction Fire for F&S. Get good at those and everything else will follow. :camping:

[DuxDawg]

We used to ignite little sticks of magnesium in high school for a chemistry class :evilgrin:
I used to take pictures with it Before flashguns.....

Hmmm... getting the impression you two fine gentlemen perhaps might be pyros... :campfire:

As if the rest of us aren't! :jumping-joy:

[DuxDawg]

After several hours of playing with a FireSteel.com ferro this week I can confidently put FS.com ferros in the "hard" ferro category along with the Light My Fire, aka LMF. Thought I had used one before and that it was more like the LMF but I wanted to make sure before I posted.

IMHO that makes the FS.com ferros a good bargain (for us here in the States) for those who desire a hard ferro. Typically the FS.com are half the price of LMFs and just as good if not a skosh better. Of course, soft ferros can be had for even less.