A case of Darwinism at play

[FishyFolk]

One of the most important survival skills in my oppinion is the ability to listen to and take advice from the locals. Specially when the locals are the
local mountain rescue team, that has to go up there and rescue your precious little selfish behind when you totally fail!

Like today in West norway where conditions are like this at the famous Pulpit rock:

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The local mounatin rescue team have all day been pressent at the car park at the beinning of the trail up there,
begging people not to hike up to the Pulpit du to heavy rain and fog. And most of the people totally disregarded their advice.

The resulting toll:

1 person stuck on the trail with a heart condition
1 person has a broken leg
and dozens of people are going down due to exposure as their clothes are not good enough for the conditions

The police has now arrived to close the trail, while mountain rescue is walking the tourists down in three shifts, while trying to
rescue those who cant self rescue.

Btw

This is what tehy came for:

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[Woody]

It looks like a beautiful spot!
Shame these idiots didn't take heed of the advice given to them, maybe on spot fines and rescue expense should be charged to the people that ignored advice and had to get rescued.
No doubt putting other people's lives on the line...
That would probably stop this from happening all the time.

It reminds me of another story , a while back about these 2 old American sailors with a combined age of about 150 that left Norway and got stranded a number of times off the British coast.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/weird-news/pensioner-calamity-sea-captains-press-7255445

I also remember coming down from the Snowdon climb, nearing the bottom, in the afternoon with some friends after a gruelling day , with lots of kit on our back , and seeing these haphazard people going up , in shorts and flipflops , with maybe 4 hours left of daylight and no kit whatsoever , poorly dressed for any weather and a big careless smile on their face...
Muppets

Darwinism alright.

[FishyFolk]

Charging for rescues would leave nature as a place for numpties with money....
Anyway, the weather has cleared some and the trail is now open again as the police has left.... meanwhile one mountain rescue member personally carried 3 people down the trail who was unable to
walk down themselves due to fatigue and exposure.

Mountain rescue remains on spot advising people not to go up...still being ignored.

[FishyFolk]

My idea would be to give Mountain rescue some limited police authority to simply order people who are not kitted out for the terrain and weather, to leave the hills.

[FishyFolk]

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[OakAshandThorn]

My idea would be to give Mountain rescue some limited police authority to simply order people who are not kitted out for the terrain and weather, to leave the hills.
If only it were that easy.....

I don't know how things are done in Norway, but here in the states (at least at the federal level), we cannot "force" people out if they don't have the necessary kit. To a degree, we aren't even supposed to tell them, for instance, if they're wearing flip flops, that hiking boots would be more appropriate footwear for the rough, rocky trail ahead of them. :rolleye:
The most we can do here is to warn them about any dangers, such as dehydration during the steamy summer days, venomous snakes (Copperheads, Timber rattlers, etc.), and so forth.

A few winters back, a father and his two young sons decided to make a winter hiking trip along the Ozark Trail, heading to Sutton Bluff Recreation Area in Mark Twain National Forest. They weren't prepared for cold temperatures - their clothing was inadequate. What is really sad, is that a person they met could have helped them, but if any assistance was offered, it was turned down. They died from hypothermia. http://www.waynecojournalbanner.com/reynolds_county/news/article_47d97b6a-7efa-11e2-aa16-001a4bcf6878.html

[FishyFolk]

Here the police is the only authority that can tell people to get out of an area. I.e mandatory evacuation.

The mountain rescue services are a volunteer organisation and can of course inform about anything they please, including advice people about apropriatre kit for the conditions. But it
is up to the public if they want to follow the advice.

But to me the worst kind are the "experts". People who claim they know everything, which makes them immune to avalanches, and everything else nature thrws at them...those are the people found when spring comes....

[OakAshandThorn]

Here the police is the only authority that can tell people to get out of an area. I.e mandatory evacuation.

The mountain rescue services are a volunteer organisation and can of course inform about anything they please, including advice people about apropriatre kit for the conditions. But it
is up to the public if they want to follow the advice.

But to me the worst kind are the "experts". People who claim they know everything, which makes them immune to avalanches, and everything else nature thrws at them...those are the people found when spring comes....
Too true - hence the reason I don't listen to or believe in "experts". That false sense of security can create very real problems, in particular if said "expert" is the leader of a group...then their decisions/actions affect the entire group. And they are always in denial of their plight: "oh, we're fine, just a bit cold, but I know there's a lodge only 10 miles that direction"; "I don't need a jacket! This wind will let up towards the summit. Besides, the weatherman said the forecast would mild and sunny".

Same thing here - it's always up to the individual to make their own decision. I guess that's how things should be, but certainly NOT when that person in question (the "expert" especially) is the leader of a group. No need for other people to roped into a nasty predicament...and that includes family.

[FishyFolk]

Here the act of roaming around in nature is a right we have since the iron age and beyond. Which is a blessing. But discussion is on if acess to certain routes and trails should be restricted
under certain conditions. But the people making this suggestion are from the tourist industry, and I smell a rat here, as they would love to monopilize the tourist trails, and charge for their use.
They have allready tried that with ski trails in the winter. But the right to roam supersedes everything so charging for access is illegal in Norway :-)

Personally, after some consideration I've landed on the conclusion that the way they handled it at the pulpit was the best. I.e have the police close the trail, while rescue services help with the evacution
if weather conditions get so bad that people get in trouble. And then continue the effort to inform tourists that flip flops is not apropriate foot wear in the hills....

[CheddarMan]

This is a perennial favourite for forums like this. And the answer is really tricky. The balance is between making walking to lovely places an elite sport that requires licences and permits and qualifications versus the ill prepared people who get themselves in trouble.

I am off on a Stag weekend for my best mate in a few weeks, we are going to Princetown on Dartmoor for a walking weekend. There are 12 of us going, and over the years in various combinations, we have done over 100 mountain marathons, have all the qualifications Mountain Training offer, walked every area and high peak in the UK, 3 of us have won National level orienteering competitions, we will have on our backs rucksacks with every appropriate bit of kit that will keep us safe. We will walk whatever the weather does to us, but could we guarantee that we will all come back safe?

Sometimes people say that rescue teams should be able to get the 'public' to sign a disclaimer and if they are poorly equipped the team doesn't have to go, but if they are properly equipped they will. That is arse about face for me. I have, and I am sure you will have as well, seen people with every conceivable item of kit under the moon, but not the slightest clue what to do with it all! They would get rescued, but it's wrong, it's not having the kit, it's knowing what to do with it. After all, when on a mountain marathon we carry tiny amounts of kit, look essentially very poorly prepared, but actually are some of the best prepared people in the outdoors that weekend!

After many discussions on this subject over the years, I tend to come down on the side of letting people get on with it and educating if we get the chance. When we think of the amount of people who use the outdoors, rescues are actually extremely rare. It doesn't help that these rescues are often concentrated in small areas in whatever country you look at.

[FishyFolk]

This is a perennial favourite for forums like this. And the answer is really tricky. The balance is between making walking to lovely places an elite sport that requires licences and permits and qualifications versus the ill prepared people who get themselves in trouble.

I am off on a Stag weekend for my best mate in a few weeks, we are going to Princetown on Dartmoor for a walking weekend. There are 12 of us going, and over the years in various combinations, we have done over 100 mountain marathons, have all the qualifications Mountain Training offer, walked every area and high peak in the UK, 3 of us have won National level orienteering competitions, we will have on our backs rucksacks with every appropriate bit of kit that will keep us safe. We will walk whatever the weather does to us, but could we guarantee that we will all come back safe?

Sometimes people say that rescue teams should be able to get the 'public' to sign a disclaimer and if they are poorly equipped the team doesn't have to go, but if they are properly equipped they will. That is arse about face for me. I have, and I am sure you will have as well, seen people with every conceivable item of kit under the moon, but not the slightest clue what to do with it all! They would get rescued, but it's wrong, it's not having the kit, it's knowing what to do with it. After all, when on a mountain marathon we carry tiny amounts of kit, look essentially very poorly prepared, but actually are some of the best prepared people in the outdoors that weekend!

After many discussions on this subject over the years, I tend to come down on the side of letting people get on with it and educating if we get the chance. When we think of the amount of people who use the outdoors, rescues are actually extremely rare. It doesn't help that these rescues are often concentrated in small areas in whatever country you look at.

On the most popular routes her ein Norway, they have to rescue people several times of week. Mostly it's people who are ill equipped for the place and conditions, or thay have an accident and injure themselves, or they simply are to exhausted to take care of themselves as they underestimate the difficulty of the route, and overestimate their own physical ability.

The other type that has to be rescued happens mostly in winter, and is your type. People who have all the quallifications, have all the kit they feel they need, and knows how to use it. But they are so over confident in themselves and their abilities that they disregard all warnings and going up in the hills, even if all the warning lights are on, and everyone is screaming for them to stay off the hills due to avalanche danger. Last year alone at least ten people where killed in my county alone by avalanches. And if rescue teams deem it to dangerous to search for or fetch the bodies, they stay out there until spring...

The team I am a member of (in a support role) we have had two rescue calls this summer. But we do not have any popular tourist trails here, so we only have to deal with the locals. One was a person who had fallen and sprained her ancle, so we sent out an ATV to bring her down to the road where an ambulance was waiting, and the other was a person who got lost in the fog in the mountains, but she managed to find a cabin where she could wait it out, so that was just a question of walking with her down the mountain.

[CheddarMan]

Yeah, it's not easy.

I will ignore the little dig about my over-confidence, well except to say that I have been walking and climbing, summer and winter, in all the mountains of the UK, the Alps and in Southern Germany when I was in the Army over there, for over 30 years and I am still here. So possibly reckless over-confidence is not something I am suffering from too much eh?

You have also proved my point about rescues being concentrated in popular areas. In the UK, Snowdonia, the Cairngorms and the Lakes probably account for 80% of mountain rescue situations. Not many people know there are mountain rescue teams in Northamptonshire for example (I keep forgetting you aren't from the UK. Northamptonshire is a flat county, in the middle of the country, miles form any sea or mountains, and is possibly the most dull county in the UK). They get called mostly for missing persons and old folk wandering off into fields from care homes. On the Mendips where I live the Mountain Rescue team deal with a few people stuck up the Gorge each year, but their cave rescue buddies are often out and about, because we have lots of caves under the Mendips.

So my answer would be as stated above, the overall benefit to individuals and to society, is to have people exercising and out and about experiencing the hills. If that means a few rescues by willing volunteers then I guess I am willing to pay that price, rather than restrict the great outdoors to people who can provide a portfolio of experience and qualifications and essentially pass a test.

What would be your answer to this very tricky dilemma?

[FishyFolk]

Yeah, it's not easy.

I will ignore the little dig about my over-confidence, well except to say that I have been walking and climbing, summer and winter, in all the mountains of the UK, the Alps and in Southern Germany when I was in the Army over there, for over 30 years and I am still here. So possibly reckless over-confidence is not something I am suffering from too much eh?

You have also proved my point about rescues being concentrated in popular areas. In the UK, Snowdonia, the Cairngorms and the Lakes probably account for 80% of mountain rescue situations. Not many people know there are mountain rescue teams in Northamptonshire for example. They get called mostly for missing persons and old folk wandering off into fields from care homes. On the Mendips where I live the Mountain Rescue team deal with a few people stuck up the Gorge each year, but their cave rescue buddies are often out and about, because we have lots of caves under the Mendips.

So my answer would be as stated above, the overall benefit to individuals and to society, is to have people exercising and out and about experiencing the hills. If that means a few rescues by willing volunteers then I guess I am willing to pay that price, rather than restrict the great outdoors to people who can provide a portfolio of experience and qualifications and essentially pass a test.

What would be your answer to this very tricky dilemma?

I am not arguing with you, I came to the same conclusion as you several posts ago :-)
Anyway right know they are out fetching the body of a base jumper...well they assume he is dead, and the body will probably have to wait a couple of days as the climb is too dangerous in the prevailing conditions.

[CheddarMan]

I am not arguing with you, I came to the same conclusion as you several posts ago :-)
Anyway right know they are out fetching the body of a base jumper...well they assume he is dead, and the body will probably have to wait a couple of days as the climb is too dangerous in the prevailing conditions.


I have to admit, I secretly really fancy BASE jumping. I know it is the sport of lunatics, but what a hoot. In fact it should be in the Olympics!

[Pootle]

I don't reckon many base jumpers get to be old!
Personally I'm not inclined to restrict people's access for their own safety. I think adults should be treated as adults and allowed to judge for themselves what risks they're willing to take. We all get it wrong sometimes, and that can be tragic. But if only those who could afford training and potential rescue were allowed to take risks then I for one would be restricted to picnics in the park!
Which is why the mountain rescue teams deserve such respect.

[FishyFolk]

The reason we have volunteer mountain rescue is simple this: Most of them really enjoy being out there in the hills and mountains. And want everyone, regardless of skills and ability to be able to enjoy the same, while doing their best to make it a bit safer for everyone.

That why we are in the hills during easter, which is a very popular week for Norwegians to go into the hills skiing. All the teams in Norway are in the hills that week to enable everyone elae to enjoy it out there, and be confident that if they injure themselves, there will be someone coming to help them.

[happybonzo]

We used to take walks down the Samaria Gorge in Crete
It's approximately 16kms long and even the "short" walk from the sea is 12kms - all under a baking Sun
We've had women turn up in white stiletto shoes and have them throw a hissy fit when they were not allowed to enter the gorge
The Scandinavians (ie German, Dutch, Norwegians, Finns, Swedes etc) always turned up with decent boots, water and a decent day pack
The Brits used to turn up with a Sainsburys plastic bag with some Stella cans...